To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

[Jetatyeovilaerodrome]

It's a bit like, when people were trying to get rid of separate toilets for black people and white people, someone coming along saying we'll keep the segregated bogs because white people feel safer with them, but also create a third one that any race can use. It's missing the point entirely.

It's nothing like that actually, because maybe you hadn't noticed but we already segregate these spaces by sex. And transwomen are of the male sex, not the female sex.

Personally I think the solution is to go down the route of only having shared facilities - it would be less safe, but "fair" - and that's all that really matters these days.

See, now I'm wondering if you are just being facetious? It is incredibly difficult to tell on this issue tbh!

[hedgehogger1]

You've not been on the side of the "Terfs" Get campaigning for a third space so women don't have to sacrifice their right so men can have what they want all the time

[AStudyinPink]

It's a bit like, when people were trying to get rid of separate toilets for black people and white people, someone coming along saying we'll keep the segregated bogs because white people feel safer with them, but also create a third one that any race can use. It's missing the point entirely.

It’s not. Sex-segregated facilities are in place because of the right of men and women to privacy from members of the other sex, and because of safety concerns. It’s not prejudice; men really do attack women in significant numbers.

[Bubblesgun]

@Smiledwiththerisingsun

Too many pages to read so apologies if it has been said before.

I think we need 3 changing rooms: female, male and gender fluid - or whatever name sounds better but you get the gist

[NoIDontWatchLoveIsland]

It's a bit like, when people were trying to get rid of separate toilets for black people and white people, someone coming along saying we'll keep the segregated bogs because white people feel safer with them, but also create a third one that any race can use. It's missing the point entirely

Its completely different. What you use a bathroom for is specific to your sex. That's why mens bathrooms have urinals because men have penises. And women's bathrooms often have sanitary bins and machines selling tampons and pads.

Women of all skin colour have the same bathroom related needs and also the same vulnerabilities - it's a space where theres a need for privacy due to removing underwear etc. There's nothing about it relating to race and everything to do with sex, so segregating based on race is stupid while segregating on sex is not.

No one has an issue with hair salons specialising in afro Caribbean hair. Because its physically different and has specific treatment needs. So that's a space where it's appropriate to have a dedicated offering for a particular race.

[bravotango]

But I honestly couldn't give two fucks whether a transwoman rapist is housed in a women's prison. Prison is meant to be scary, threatening, somewhere horrible that you'd never want to end up in. Filling it up with male sex offenders who claim they are women sounds like it would help get the message across.

Possibly one of the most shocking things I've read on a thread. Educate yourself asap please thanks

[Tanith]

To answer your question, Op, yes: there are groups. There's one in particular that has set up meetings attended by trans people, some of whom even spoke to the meetings.

They were organised by WPUK.
The trans activists reacted by calling them a hate group, getting meetings banned, issuing bomb threats, harassing the people attending, hammering on the windows and setting off firebombs.

[DeaconBoo]

Personally I think the solution is to go down the route of only having shared facilities - it would be less safe, but "fair" - and that's all that really matters these days.

In practically every thread we've been going on about how safeguarding is paramount.

The fact that "less safe" is being proposed as a "solution" to lack of safeguarding basically sums up the whole debate.
(I'm also not sure if that comment was serious or not! )

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

I came to say what Tabitha said... got sidetracked by what has to be one of the nastiest posts I've seen....


But mainly, what Tabitha said! No debate still rules.for some, so a pleasant chat remains impossible.

[misscockerspaniel]

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

My apologies, Tanith autocorrect is being very stubborn. Let's see if this correction stands...

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

Most women who end up in prison do so for non violent crimes in comparison with the male cohort. They often lose their children into the care system. Their backgrounds are often disadvantaged. Talk about beating people with the shitty end of the stick..... how dehumanised do you want women to be? Boys will be boys but women must be paragons of virtue and if they're not they should be exposed to a high risk environment made moreso by male bodies prisoners who can claim discrimination at the drop of a hat and be pandered to? How regressive do you want to be?

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

And whatever happened to the concept of rehabilitation?

[Genderless]

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

It's a bit like, when people were trying to get rid of separate toilets for black people and white people, someone coming along saying we'll keep the segregated bogs because white people feel safer with them, but also create a third one that any race can use. It's missing the point entirely

Its completely different. What you use a bathroom for is specific to your sex. That's why mens bathrooms have urinals because men have penises. And women's bathrooms often have sanitary bins and machines selling tampons and pads.

Women of all skin colour have the same bathroom related needs and also the same vulnerabilities - it's a space where theres a need for privacy due to removing underwear etc. There's nothing about it relating to race and everything to do with sex, so segregating based on race is stupid while segregating on sex is not.

No one has an issue with hair salons specialising in afro Caribbean hair. Because its physically different and has specific treatment needs. So that's a space where it's appropriate to have a dedicated offering for a particular race.

Spot on! I couldn't agree more.

That "logic" you quoted was useless.

[Genderless]

Meant the logic in the post. Not that quoting it was useless.

[wellthatsunusual]

It's an interesting concept that a woman who has broken the law should have the possibility of rape or sexual assault held over her as part of her punishment. Not one I thought I'd ever read but nothing surprises me these days.

[TyroTerf]

So far as I recall, a startlingly high proportion of the female estate are there for not paying their TV licence. Is rape a suitable punishment for non-payment of the licence fee?

[NoIDontWatchLoveIsland]

Tyroterf
Its 30%. Almost 1 in 3 female convictions is for tv license evasion.what a fucking waste of money in the judicial system.

[NoIDontWatchLoveIsland]

(Or at least it was in 2017, according to MoJ report "statistics on women and the criminal justice system 2017" published 29 november 2018, page 6, bottom para)

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

I don’t know any woman who actually refers to herself as a ‘TERF’. The word is a slur.

[Sheleg]

Prison is meant to be scary, threatening, somewhere horrible that you'd never want to end up in. Filling it up with male sex offenders who claim they are women sounds like it would help get the message across.

This is one of the most repulsive things I've ever read on here.

Completely without nuance as to the systemic reasons women end up in prison. Poverty, abuse, addiction, generations of societal neglect. It isn't a case of just blithely deciding not to commit crime because prison is awful. It's being trapped in a system that disadvantages you before you're even born.

[AStudyinPink]

Completely without nuance as to the systemic reasons women end up in prison.

Which don’t matter anyway. It doesn’t matter what someone has done; rape isn’t an available punishment.

[AStudyinPink]

It's an interesting concept that a woman who has broken the law should have the possibility of rape or sexual assault held over her as part of her punishment. Not one I thought I'd ever read but nothing surprises me these days.

But a transwoman with a history of actually assaulting people? No. They should be kept safe by being sent somewhere they are likely to be the most physically powerful person in the building.

[Genderless]

Completely without nuance as to the systemic reasons women end up in prison. Poverty, abuse, addiction, generations of societal neglect. It isn't a case of just blithely deciding not to commit crime because prison is awful. It's being trapped in a system that disadvantages you before you're even born.

Interesting.

[VegetableLove]

@MissingLinker

But I honestly couldn't give two fucks whether a transwoman rapist is housed in a women's prison. Prison is meant to be scary, threatening, somewhere horrible that you'd never want to end up in. Filling it up with male sex offenders who claim they are women sounds like it would help get the message across.

Thankfully, whether you give a fuck or not is neither here nor there. Out of interest, though, how serious a crime would a woman have to commit before rape should be accepted as a punitive measure?

Aren't lots of women in prison for non payment of TV licensing?

Corrective rape sounds like a totally reasonable punishment for watching Homes Under The Hammer on the sly...