To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

[MichelleScarn]

They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them. you do you, but which is the group that makes room? Only one side of your planned utopia.

[Marley20]

Nope, women don't need to be kind to men who make them feel uncomfortable, didn't you get the memo!

[NiceGerbil]

Pukka how do you feel about women who don't want self ID across the board for all single sex stuff being compared to racists?

Because that happens constantly.

[bluebluezoo]

There needs to be more kindness on both sides

Fuck off the the “kindness”. What that really means is let others trample all over your wants and needs because theirs are more important. “Kindness” can not be a two way street.

But to address your concerns, most women and trans women I know co exist fine. These transwomen wouldn’t dream of inserting themselves into womens spaces or insisting they get what they want, sod everyone else. They are nice, thoughtful people who use the accessible bathroom or the toilets in the 5th floor no one else uses if others are uncomfortable. All they want is to live their lives in the way they want, causing as little upset to others as possible.

women are fine with that, and most will absolutely stand up for their rights to be treated as they wish.

It is the TRA’s and their demands to be let into womens space, to take away womens access to protected jobs, education, awards, even safety .to be validated by women allowing them to do what whatever they choose and bend over and praise them for doing it.

Anyone who threatens another person with their penis, whether they call it a ladydick or not, is exhibiting male violence and ends any right they have to be allowed into female spaces. I lost count of the “suck my big fat ladydick” and my ladydick in her mouth would shut her up” type threats toward jkr.

Personally though I think “non binary” is the norm, not the exception. Gender isn’t a binary, sex is. I am non binary because i don’t always dress in heels and skirts, and i don’t like all that is pink and glittery. I like science, maths and jeans. I don’t know many men or women that subscribe exclusively to the male/female stereotype, and it would be a sad world if they did. Back to the days of women doing all the housework and putting pretty ribbons in their hair, while the men go out wearing their trousers and doing a hard days graft.

Get rid of gender and all the pink and blue shit and a lot of the non binary genderqueer stuff disappears overnight...

[Pukkatea]

@thewithesarehere I don't disagree, but I still feel empathy for transpeople who will spend their lives being 'other'. I don't know the answer, I just wish there was one.

[Pukkatea]

@NiceGerbil I don't agree with that. I think most people make reasonable points about protecting the safety and freedoms of women. Some do take it too far. Just like it's only some trans people who take their side too far.

[Quaagars]

Have you tried the feminism board, lots of threads discussing trans issues there

[Thewithesarehere]

I have started the new thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4148800-AIBU-to-think-women-should-not-be-banned-from-Social-media-for-asking-the-question-Thread-2?msgid=104082201#104082201

[sosotired1]

The rights of more vulnerable women and girls, female prisoners etc. are not yours to give away just because you are happy to share a bathroom with your friend's kids. Your 'feelz' don't trump the hard-won rights of women and children. Do you realise just how entitled and selfish that sounds? Just how unkind that actually is?

The kind, middle ground is clearly additional unisex facilities and I expect many women and feminists would support the fight for that.

[PurpleRainDancer]

@Thislittlefinger123

So it's up to women to be nice and kind and find a solution for a problem only affecting males? Sigh.

Nope.

Well said.

[Blubellsarebells]

The only half way I can see is third spaces
And apparently thats not good enough.
Males in female spaces is a hard no from me.
Im saying no.
I'll keep saying no.
Theres a word for men that dont listen to women saying no.

[spinspinsugar55]

@Pukkatea

Yes OP, I agree. Women need to be protected but trans people also need to be protected. I have no idea how you square this circle but I don't want trans people to suffer being another group condemned to male violence.

People on here comparing transwomen to racists really are utterly disgusting.

Agree

[Thewithesarehere]

[quote Pukkatea]@thewithesarehere I don't disagree, but I still feel empathy for transpeople who will spend their lives being 'other'. I don't know the answer, I just wish there was one.[/quote]
Well, I wish I could stop feeling like an idiot every time I look at a picture of Marie Curie; I wish I could stop feeling poor every time I look at the Queen; I wish I could stop feeling frumpy every time I look at Michelle Obama.

The list is endless.

[sleepyhead]

Third spaces and the use of additional language in the name of inclusion (e.g. pregnant women and transmen, not birthing bodies), is the middle ground.

Most GC women are fine with that.

[Toseland]

The time has long passed for kindness. Don’t be fooled. Stonewall bought in #nodebate and will not discuss it or be kind to women and children. This is an outright assault on the rights and safety of 75% of the population. Women have to wake up and fight back. Have you seen how these trans people are on Twitter?

[Laiste]

Blubellsarebells

The only half way I can see is third spaces
And apparently thats not good enough.
Males in female spaces is a hard no from me.
Im saying no.
I'll keep saying no.
Theres a word for men that dont listen to women saying no.


Spot on.

[Quaagars]

Have you seen how these trans people are on Twitter

"These" trans people?
What, all of them?
Like a big blob?

[ghostyslovesheets]

TERFs ... Kindness

well which is it? because you aren't being kind using that slur

[TyroTerf]

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

I agree there's a vast difference between kids suffering gender confusion and predatory males taking advantage of the loophole Stonewall has opened up.

I'm just not convinced that it's kind, in the long run, to play along with the belief that one's sex is determined by an inner indescribable feeling that manifests via adherence to a particular set of sex-stereotypes.

It's not kind to the women and girls who need single sex spaces, and it's not kind to the kids who would otherwise come to accept their birth sex.

[AradiaGC]

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

I know some lovely men that I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with. I wouldn't argue that those men can go into the ladies' loos because I know they're lovely and harmless. Other women don't know them at all. (And, being decent men, they'd never try to do such a thing...)

When we say that we don't want males in single-sex spaces it isn't a judgement on any individual man, however he identifies. There's no level of niceness that means he's allowed in, because that isn't how it works. Women's spaces are for women. If some men are unhappy or uncomfortable in men's spaces, it's up to them to campaign for a third space. Women's spaces aren't terra nullius to be occupied by whomever would like to be in them, they aren't spaces for 'non-men', and it isn't up to women to fix everyone else's problems.

[BornIn78]

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

Well I would mind, and so would my 13 y/o niece.

I fully support trans people who want to fight for a third space - mens/womens/third space - but from what I can see, that is not what trans people (generally, trans women) want... only total capitulation by women will satisfy them.

[DimidDavilby]

I agree with you OP but the virulent transphobes on here never will. I honestly do not think that womens rights figure very high on their agenda, they just really hate trans people. You can see that from the way they merrily get into bed with the far right.

[TroosAndShoes]

My girls don't want to get undressed in front of their own dad and brothers - I'm damn sure they wouldn't want to get undressed in front of anyone else's!

[Thewithesarehere]

Also, I absolutely would want to know if my daughter was to share her tent with a male-bodied ‘girl’ scout
Like I have said before, there are some excellent lawsuits are in the making here. This is one of the languages this lot will surely understand.

[loopyapp]

I know this is a challenging subject and for some people it can trigger quite visceral reactions.. However equating this issue with racism and Israel/Palestine is just.. Horrendous.. and makes you look stupid and lessens your cause.

You don't have to compromise an inch on your stand point that women need spaces that dont allow room for anyone born with a penis to stop being an abusive bully. You can be seething, frothing and boiling beneath the surface and still be a decent human being.

If your only response to a genuine question is to snipe with dismissive sarcasm then you are doing nothing but harming the cause you're apparently speaking for.

Would you be able to take anyone seriously who Behaves the way some of you are behaving here??

The answer to this I think is that the elements on both sides of this that can have a discussion about it without behaving like surly toddlers need to come together and put the issue to bed.

As a mother of four boys I can honestly say that at no point past the age of 5 or 6 that they should ever expect use of a changing space or bathroom that a member of the opposite sex uses.

If elements of the person they grow up to be mean that they might not be or feel safe in fascillaties intended for men then i would hope that a third safe space exist.

Being rightly excluded from a woman's space doesn't mean any person should be at risk of harm either.

No, that is not my problem as a woman to solve but as a mother of boys I would happily be part of a movement to help find appropriate third spaces for anyone who might not perfectly fit into one of only two perfect molds.