To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

It's not just about physical spaces though. Do you think all references to "sex" in law should be replaced by "gender", so there is no longer any concept of a group of ppl with XX chromosomes having any sort of rights to themselves?

As a pp said, we've currently got laws for gender, sex and gender with exceptions for sex-based provision where appropriate. it's not seen as enough so groups are campaigning to have no recognition of sex whatsoever, and only reference to gender which is what someone says they are.

I don't think this is middle ground at all.

Yes there are angry people on both sides but try to see through that to what is actually happening.

Thanks @Winesalot I suppose I was wondering if there were any groups like this? Made up of both women & transpeople & perhaps men too even?

@DeaconBoo I'm not someone who questions the existence of male & female sexes.

I think our lawmaker's focus should be about trying to make everyone feel safe.

I have read quite a lot about this over the last few years. And I suppose just feel that we need to stop shouting and start talking.

The changes in law and the misinterpretation of existing laws worry me greatly. That IS what is happening because people haven’t caught up with what is being done while they are being kind and discussing toilets.

It is a good play guide for distraction. Keep people thinking this is just about ‘we just want to pee’ but while that discussion is happening make substantial changes in law and in guidelines.

For instance, look at what is happening in Scotland. Look at what is being discussed as guidelines on transphobia in SNP .... if they adopt the same definitions as some of their advising groups making anyone discussing potential conflicts in rights deemed phobic. Effectively, making any deviation from acceptable only impossible.

People like Clare Dimyon have tried asking nicely.
We all have. I still try to!
But can you honestly read this and still think it's ok to tell her not to get angry?

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

@Smiledwiththerisingsun

Thanks *@Winesalot* I suppose I was wondering if there were any groups like this? Made up of both women & transpeople & perhaps men too even?

I think you will find they are out there. I know that they are labeled a hate group but the LGB alliance has trans members and work on the same sex issues being maintained to be sex not gender (hence their label as a hate group). Remember they are founded by some career lobbyists who lobbied for the some of the rights they are again lobbying for under Stonewall before the T become Stonewall’s focus.

And transwomen have spoken at meetings for Women’s Place iirc. The group of transwomen who are conscious of the impacts and are trying to find solutions are very much in conversations with the women who are also trying to find solutions. The problem is, there needs to be more but to do so is high risk.

im a bit - meh- about your last comments actually.
you seem to be suggesting that at present the resistance to tra is just a load of aggressive unwilling to compromise women. 🤷🏼‍♀️thats not the case at all-

what do you see compromise looking like? what do you see the debate looking like? and who do you think is saying no to that?

Sorry don’t have time to RTWT to see if this has already been posted, but this statement by the Fawcett Society seems to me to be the most reasonable “seeing both sides” statement I’ve seen from any official body:

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/blog/sex-and-gender-identity-finding-a-way-forward

stop shouting and start talking.

Yes, I think that worked for the suffragettes, didn't it? As I recall, women asked nicely and men said," oh, I had no idea it was so unfair, here have the vote, safe spaces and take part in public life."

JK Rowling wrote a brilliant, calm, detailed nuanced letter about this without shouting.

The result was people who had not read it shouting transphobe and sending dick pics on a public forum for children.

Is that reasonable debate?

@thebuffster
Is this the JK piece you meant ?

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

Yes, the essay comprises of five points.

Introduction: why she's writing.

1. Sex not gender is important for the charities JK runs. Sex based focus on survivors of domestic abuse. MS because the disease presents and is treated differently in men and women.

2. Ex teacher so has understanding and interest in safeguarding.

3)believes in free speech. Even for Trump!

4. personal experience of being uncomfortable with growing up female.

5. personal experience of sexual violence and escape via safe spaces for women only. Hence she values them.

Conclusion: "All I’m asking – all I want – is for similar empathy, similar understanding, to be extended to the many millions of women whose sole crime is wanting their concerns to be heard without receiving threats and abuse."

I realise the link is there to be read and would encourage anyone to read it. The sad fact of the matter is very few people will actually read it themselves. In my experience people like to analyze it without actually having read it. They like to condemn it as transphobic but cannot point to a single transphobic quote. Myself, I can back up my opinions. Trump is sexist. I refer to the infamous grab them by the pussy quote.
We recently had a 1000 post thread on the subject and not once in that 1000 post thread could anyone say that what JK had said was transphobic using the primary resource. All that happened was endless "I know, but I am not going to bother telling you" quotes and the occasional biased article with no explanation or engagement.
There was also the fact she'd objected to the word woman being erased.

This is why people are angry. A woman can write sensitively and clearly on the conflicts this throws up for the whole world to see.

And the response was dick pics and rape threats.

That doesn't sound like a middle ground to me.

I’m sorry if certain groups of privileged males are now having problems with biology, but women and girls have always had problems with biology and men rarely go out of their way to be kind about them

Excellent very resonant point Mayyouliveininterestingtimes when you think of legislative and social responses to the issues biology places on women.

I'd like to go back to my earlier point, which is that this reasonable discussion of which you speak op, has already happened. Legislation that protects both gender reassignment and sex was thrashed out, submitted to parliament, debated and voted through over a decade ago.

It doesn't please everyone of course, but such is the nature of a middle way.

I would like to ask again why are we are being fed this constant narrative that we need to find a compromise when to my mind, that is exactly what we have already?

I've just watched the video linked up thread, on page 20. Thanks to whoever posted it. I would suggest that anyone who has an interest in this subject watches it. It's tough viewing but very important.

And in case anyone is wondering how one-sided it is, there are loads of transwomen speaking on it. Some pro, some against the ideology.

To me, there was a very clear divide between who came across as measured and thoughtful, and those who didn't. Scary stuff.

I think the trouble is there are quite a few transwomen- especially on twitter - who see natal women’s point of view. However they also are generally very supportive of women retaining the right to female only spaces. They get a ton of grief from TRAs. Some have been trying for years (eg Debbie Heyton). So if they can’t figure it out who can?

[quote Smiledwiththerisingsun]@DeaconBoo I'm not someone who questions the existence of male & female sexes.

I think our lawmaker's focus should be about trying to make everyone feel safe.

I have read quite a lot about this over the last few years. And I suppose just feel that we need to stop shouting and start talking. [/quote]
Why are you framing this as if it’s about two roughly equal parties, with equal strength of claim on a disputed territory?

It isn’t. It’s about one side with greater physical and structural power (biologically male people) trying to take away the rights and autonomy of another group with less structural and physical power (biologically female people), aided and abetted by a number of biologically female people - the way some female people always collude with male oppression of females under patriarchy.

It’s a form of structural psychological abuse, IMO. There is no symmetry between what TRAs are doing and what GC feminists are doing. They are abusing; we are trying to protect ourselves from abuse. The “shouting” is not comparable. (And as you well know, the rape and death threats and other violent rhetoric go all one way.)

You cannot stop somebody abusing you by asking them nicely not to. If they were nice, reasonable people, they wouldn’t be abusing you in the first place.

Despite this, women have tried to talk and be reasonable, but what have we met with? The hashtag #nodebate, remember? Cancelling, doxxing, threats of violence and actual violence; the mentality that it’s “transphobic” to do literally anything short of rolling over and saying yes to self ID at all times, in all circumstance. Acceptance without exception, remember?

You are engaging in classic victim blaming here with your six of one and half a dozen of the other, and it’s ugly. You’re implying that women are to blame for being too angry, too strident, not reasonable enough; that if only we would be nicer and kinder then our poor defenceless abusers would want to work with us instead of against us. FFS. (By “abusers” I don’t mean your friends’ “lovely trans kids”, obviously, or any specific individuals per se, but those who as a group are actually orchestrating and vigorously promoting this attack on women’s rights, this absolute land grab.)

No. Point the finger of blame where it really belongs, acknowledge what the dynamics are here, really. Your use of “TERF” in your OP is enough to make anyone doubt your good faith, but if you are actually just this clueless, you need to get your head out of the sand, and look at the real landscape in front of you.

Not trying to make any point but I thought the use of that acronym in the OP was immediately explained following that use in the OP.
I think a lot of ppl have missed this and reacted accordingly (there would have been clearer ways of making this obvious but you get called "grammar police" if you point out such things ).

I have read the JK piece when it came out thanks.
In fact her writing this was the first time some people I know actually felt emboldened to say that they agree with women only spaces.

Lots of you are just shouting at me. And I mainly agree with your points 🤷‍♀️

Just because you shout loudly and aggressively , does not mean you speak for ALL women.

Just because some trans activists are misogynistic & violent, does not mean they speak for ALL trans people.

Perhaps there are lots of people (more maybe) in between?

But how would you know what sort of person each one is if you didn't know them already? Is there going to be some sort of vetting system (always call family and friends to vouch for each one) before they enter the women/girls's bathrooms, etc?

@Genderless how do you know that about anyone?

How have you known previously, all the people who appear to be women in the changing room/toilet etc actually ARE women anyway?

Not trying to make any point but I thought the use of that acronym in the OP was immediately explained following that use in the OP.

Thank you @DeaconBoo

I'm sorry you feel piled up on. It's never nice. But people have been advocating for us and have tried asking nicely a little Ng time before us newbies realised there was a conflict of interest. I'm grateful they loudly advocated for us whilst the rest of us were oblivious.

Long time not little.