To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

Indeed, there are lots of trans people who are vulnerable. For all sorts of reasons. There are gay people who are vulnerable, autistic people, disabled people, elderly people people with mental health issues.

If you understand feminism, you understand that women are targeted because of their biology. 117 million females have gone missing worldwide specifically because of their biology. They either haven't been born, or they have been killed or disappeared.

None of them could have changed their path by identifying as a different sex.

You need to tackle the reasons for this, not encourage people to disguise their sex, to disguise the issue.

This.

I don't have to think of those things to conside how I feel about a small minoroty of men.

I don't accept that taking a chance, being nice and trusting transwomen to be equally nice and putting one single woman or girl is acceptable.

Transwomen are men. They have the physical bodies of men and the violent offending rates of men.

And I too have trans friends, as I have said many many times before. They retain the sex they were born. They live as best they can with the social issues their dysphoria causes them. They do not insist they are the men/women they wish they are.

It is precisely because I have long known a number if trans individuals that I found my response to transwomen in public toilets problematic. And equally because if her attitude that I know she is still a man, no matter how much surgery she has had (more than some but not all that is possible). And yes, 'she' because I have known her as 'she' for 30+ years.

It's hard to get your head around it and, if your trans friends and colleagues are even vaguely TRA then I imagine it's impossible to take a step back and see it dispassionately. But that is what is needed. An exercise in logic! Not a blind acceptance of the impossible.

willit Just to get some understanding of your starting viewpoint, do you actually believe that there are two sexes (with a small minority of people with DSDs) and these are physically fixed?

This was the belief ruled as 'not worthy of respect in democratic society' by the judge in Maya Forstater's case.

Do you think that was correct? Do you think there are trans people who would agree that there are two sexes and that biological sex has been the root of their dysphoria? (There are also lots of trans people that disagree).

Curious, Biscuits, willit and all those suffering from infertility

@PoleToPole

Curious, Biscuits, willit and all those suffering from infertility

I appreciate that. Even though we have differing opinions, that means a lot.

@HermioneWeasley

It’s not an issue of kindness though, you either have sex segregated spaces, services and sports or you don’t. You either think sterilising gay and autistic children is ok or you don’t.

Being women isn’t some elite club that were horrible meanies keeping TW out of, you’re either an adult human female or you’re not. Kindness doesn’t enter into it.

This.

"Be kind" isn't an argument, it's a demand to submit designed to play on female socialisation, so that'll be a big fat no from me.

willithappen and it is meant genuinely, it does not matter how opposing our views, it is not something I would wish for anyone x

willithappen

I recommend you stick around. You seem to have an understanding of why women are considered 'lesser than'.

It must follow that you understand that they have to be able to define themselves, in order to combat it. Define themselves linguistically, biologically and politically. If you can't address why women are targeted, you can't stop it.

If you can't see sex, you won't see sexism. (coined by Miranda Yardley, a transwoman).

It's not about being kind. It's about losing every right you've ever had as a woman.

"Be kind" isn't an argument, it's a demand to submit designed to play on female socialisation, so that'll be a big fat no from me.

Exactly this.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

"Be kind" isn't an argument, it's a demand to submit designed to play on female socialisation, so that'll be a big fat no from me.

Exactly this.

Indeed.

Stop 'being kind' and see what happens.

This happens.

Why is, "be kind" never extended to women?
Rape victims
Abuse victims
Sports women
Religious women
Prisoner women
Teenage women
Elderly women
Any women.

Why do I have to be kind just because I'm a woman? And yes, was a woman and knew it before I had Ds, didn't need Wikipedia to find out.

I mean, if the only definition of female people was child bearing, you couldn't have all girls schools, could you?

@willithappen

Trans women are women

Once again - how?

You also haven't answered why you think toilets are sex segregated in the first place

Please explain to me the real issue with trans women sharing a bathroom? What are you really scared of?

Why should it take us being scared before we have to defend our hard fought for rights? For me it's about privacy and dignity. Does that not matter too? Or do we only have rights from a point of being scared?

You are aware men (and violent women) can access these bathrooms too yes? They just walk right in...

Yea and I could go and say to whoever manages the toilet facilities and say there's someone in the toilet that shouldn't be and it would be dealt with. If said person, no matter how predatory, says they identify as female, then it's me who's in the wrong. See the problem now?

@willithappen

A Woman is a female of the human species.
Females do not have a Y chromosome.
( Most women have XX chromosomes )

Any member of the human species that has a Y chromosome
( and there are several permutations in addition to the common XY format )
is not a woman.

Those are biological facts from the point of conception
they are not observed or assigned or anything else
and they cannot be changed because they are coded into every cell

They also have no bearing on fertility or age.

Women XX

Out of curiosity then, if a trans women has the ability to go through with all necessary steps, operations, hair transplants - the likes, are these trans women then welcome into 'our' spaces?

No. Because they're still men no matter how many procedures they go through.

Those surgeries sound horrific, often with complications and pain. I'd never want to be encouraging people into unnecessary surgery.

More than happy to include transmen, who are women, in my feminism. Especially advocating for robust mental health services that are easily accessible.

They can obviously use the ladies loos as well as I don't see men welcoming the washing of mooncups in the sink anytime soon.

Wrongside
Some do, because they genuinely pass for odd looking women.

But they are incredibly few and far between and seem to be the ones who had surgery as early as they could
and have lived their whole adult lives as women.

They also tend to be the ones who want nothing to do with all this TRA stuff. They just want to live quiet lives.

Out of curiosity then, if a trans women has the ability to go through with all necessary steps, operations, hair transplants - the likes, are these trans women then welcome into 'our' spaces?

I think there is a large divergence of opinion on this. Often though you realise you're making access to spaces dependent on undergoing drastic medical procedures, which is v problematic. And I fundamentally disapprove of treating people differently due to their looks. (I.e. not as an identifier to a physical class, age, etc where this is relevant).

What I'm trying to say is it is unfair to tarnish all trans women with this brush, when they haven't done that in their life

But we 'tarnish all men with the same brush' don't we? My DH is a lovely man who wouldn't hurt a fly. Should he be allowed into female facilities and to use female provision on that basis? No because he is of the sex class of male.

At what objective point does a male who identifies as a woman come of of the class of male and into the class of female? What are the criteria for that?

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

The issue with third spaces is that they can't be specifically for trans people as that would draw attention to them which could ( and certainly would be claimed) make them an easy target.

They don't have to be specifically be for trans people. They can be shared by all those women who claim they don't have a problem sharing facilities with trans people and on that basis are happy to give away other women's rights without their consent.

They can be used by families when together, and I would use them in circumstances when I was out with my young son. They could be used by those who needed carers of the opposite sex to be with them and help them.

The world, the centre and the sun doesn't have to begin and end with the trans issue. A third space could be beneficial for a variety of reasons, which in turn would benefit them. But they don't want this. They are clamouring to violate the boundaries of women, and nothing else will suffice. We are there to validate their 'identity' and to hell with our dignity, privacy and safety.

This form of activism is not one that's accustomed to compromise. No matter how much they tell you to 'be nice', unfortunately you'll get nowhere taking this stance.

100% agree.

Good to see Barbara have her say on this thread too.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Good to see Barbara have her say on this thread too.

@BarbaraofKent

What I'm trying to say is it is unfair to tarnish all trans women with this brush, when they haven't done that in their life

But we 'tarnish all men with the same brush' don't we? My DH is a lovely man who wouldn't hurt a fly. Should he be allowed into female facilities and to use female provision on that basis? No because he is of the sex class of male.

At what objective point does a male who identifies as a woman come of of the class of male and into the class of female? What are the criteria for that?

As a fellow Barbara of Kent, I fully support the opinion of my doppelgänger. A woman with very sound opinions, as you would expect from such a name.

Out of curiosity then, if a trans women has the ability to go through with all necessary steps, operations, hair transplants - the likes, are these trans women then welcome into 'our' spaces?

I think there is a large divergence of opinion on this.

I also think a lot of that divergence is based around the assumption that trans women are like old-school transsexuals who have been through the full reassignment process including surgery. The reasoning goes that if you're committed enough to put yourself through all that, you've earned the right to be recognised as a woman.

Until a particularly toxic, abusive brand of activism took over this issue and began its sustained assault on women, I was of the same way of thinking myself. Didn't trouble me in the least sharing facilities with such people, (and yes, I was aware of who they were. If not from physiognomy and build it's immediately apparent as soon as they move). It was a sort of 'gentlewoman's' agreement: you don't bother me so I won't bother you.

The parameters of that situation have shifted so radically now as to be beyond recognition. Back then no one was trying to redefine and recategorize my personal identity, violate my bodily boundaries, call me a 'bleeder' or use their trans status to inch women out of their categories in sport, business, 'women in achievement' awards and worse of all, rape crisis centres and their own sexual orientation as lesbians.

Pull that sort of shit on people and they are going to push back: strongly. It's only to be expected.

I guess this takes us back to the original question

Yes there are groups of women and transwomen who talk to each other and have a common understanding

However the trans community ignore their voices

It's even less united than The female community I think