To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

This is not a woman's problem to resolve. Sex is already a protected characteristic and women have the right to safe sex segregated spaces. I'm not giving my rights and legal protections away to be kind.

As a fellow Barbara of Kent, I fully support the opinion of my doppelgänger. A woman with very sound opinions, as you would expect from such a name.

Back atcha Babs 😘

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

Out of curiosity then, if a trans women has the ability to go through with all necessary steps, operations, hair transplants - the likes, are these trans women then welcome into 'our' spaces?

I think there is a large divergence of opinion on this.

I also think a lot of that divergence is based around the assumption that trans women are like old-school transsexuals who have been through the full reassignment process including surgery. The reasoning goes that if you're committed enough to put yourself through all that, you've earned the right to be recognised as a woman.

Until a particularly toxic, abusive brand of activism took over this issue and began its sustained assault on women, I was of the same way of thinking myself. Didn't trouble me in the least sharing facilities with such people, (and yes, I was aware of who they were. If not from physiognomy and build it's immediately apparent as soon as they move). It was a sort of 'gentlewoman's' agreement: you don't bother me so I won't bother you.

The parameters of that situation have shifted so radically now as to be beyond recognition. Back then no one was trying to redefine and recategorize my personal identity, violate my bodily boundaries, call me a 'bleeder' or use their trans status to inch women out of their categories in sport, business, 'women in achievement' awards and worse of all, rape crisis centres and their own sexual orientation as lesbians.

Pull that sort of shit on people and they are going to push back: strongly. It's only to be expected.

Hear hear!

Marie
ABSOLUTELY

Crikey, I've learnt a lot from this thread.
I would like to point out quite categorically that men who sexually abuse and rape women will go out of their way to do so and to get away with it.
I know this because my job involves investigating such crimes.
They will pick a victim who won't be believed, they will choose jobs that get them into close contact with vulnerable women, they will pick a place where they are less likely to be caught, etc. And make no mistake, they will quite happily claim to be women if it gets them access to women, especially vulnerable women and children.
I'm not saying trans women are rapists. I'm saying self ID is a golden opportunity for rapists.

I don't think it would be a Trans persons place. I think families would use them, non binary, young people out together etc.

FFS! Wrong thread again today! Hello both Babs while I'm here!

I firmly believe everyone has the right to be happy and comfortable in their skin. Be straight, be gay, be lesbian, be trans, be whatever you want to be - if you're happy I'm happy. I don't ask anyone to change what they are comfortable with to accommodate my choices and therefore I don't expect to to be asked to do so either. Everyone's rights matter and one group cannot be expected to be prioritized over another. Meeting their rights shouldn't come at the expense of mine. live and let live if you will.. I don't like the particular brand of activism that has accompanied the trans movement recently, its toxic.

I completely agree with @WednesdayalltheWay these people will do literally anything to get away with it. Any woman who has been raped, had their boundaries violated, or been subjected to other predatory behavior has a right to be safe.

@WednesdayalltheWay

Crikey, I've learnt a lot from this thread. I would like to point out quite categorically that men who sexually abuse and rape women will go out of their way to do so and to get away with it. I know this because my job involves investigating such crimes. They will pick a victim who won't be believed, they will choose jobs that get them into close contact with vulnerable women, they will pick a place where they are less likely to be caught, etc. And make no mistake, they will quite happily claim to be women if it gets them access to women, especially vulnerable women and children. I'm not saying trans women are rapists. I'm saying self ID is a golden opportunity for rapists.

Thank you so much for saying this (even though it's obviously horrible). I kind of thought this was almost common knowledge, but I'd started doubting myself. I used to give the example of a colleague's ex who got himself a restraining order I think, but still delighted in just dipping his toe to the line - sitting in his car for hours where she happened to be etc.

[quote Tubbytenbums]@Impatiens did a trans woman commit the crime? If not, my point still stands.[/quote]
Yes, of course a transwoman. Why would I have mentioned it otherwise?

Yes as someone who was a social worker we learned that men would try many identities and names to get access to children Years ago I was naive about this but many in the business also do it. It’s not about how they dress though, it’s what they are

At the risk of getting absolutely stamped on I think there are an awful lot of people who do get it completely and want to engage but are scared off by the sheer level of aggression (and sorry but I have seen it on both sides).

I work with an organisation (not mermaids!!!) who have been at the receiving end of a lot of ire from certain GC feminists - however, I would say that they actually do agree with the GC position. But some of the things the GC have done WRT their staff has been extremely ill advised and not painted us in the best light.

I think you'll need to be clearer on what 'things' you're talking about @Partedinsurprise. Not disagreeing with you about the anger on both sides (but the source of that anger is very different on each side).

a near 500 post thread on a topic that concerns whether a man can become a woman. No they can't. Every single cell for every use and every cell turned over carries a Y chromosome. Changing the exterior is completely irrelevant. What kind of society are we perpetuating here.

Just catching up.

I would like to say that the argument

That IF MEN WANT TO RAPE YOU THEY WILL AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT

Is not floating my boat.

I mean really. Empathy? Nah.

You're gonna get raped anyway so why not open everything up to self ID and acceptance without question and if there's a man who looks like a man and is a man loitering in the ladies then trust he's in the right place and.. ok he's sidling up to teenagers striking up conversation standing too close... That's not illegal! And you know if you get raped which as a woman you might well so at any moment and there's nothing you can do about it... You can report it! To a system which hardly anyone reports to and has a prosecution rate so low it's been in the news...

YABU

For such a brand new issue for such a small part of the world this certainly has grown out of control and no, it's not up to 1/2 the oppressed side of the world to fix it. Take it up with Mensnet or whatever.

And you know if you get raped which as a woman you might well so at any moment and there's nothing you can do about it... You can report it! To a system which hardly anyone reports to and has a prosecution rate so low it's been in the news

And if you do report it, it’s your fault anyway ...

But some of the things the GC have done WRT their staff has been extremely ill advised and not painted us in the best light.
Ok without knowing more it's difficult to comment (and I don't know what WRT means) but what struck me was your use of GC as if it's an official organisation. Anyone can do something stupid but it's totally different if that stupidity comes from an organisation or a charity rather than a troublemaker. And in any case it's not unheard of for people to claim they are working on one side in order to bring that same side into discredit. We see it even on here where posters stir up threads for screenshots.

Any woman who has been raped, had their boundaries violated, or been subjected to other predatory behavior has a right to be safe.
I get what your saying but Any woman has a right to be safe. We shouldn't have to wait to be violated before being allowed boundaries.

@Sometimesonly

Any woman who has been raped, had their boundaries violated, or been subjected to other predatory behavior has a right to be safe. I get what your saying but Any woman has a right to be safe. We shouldn't have to wait to be violated before being allowed boundaries.

I don't disagree, my point was that there are women out there who have been violated and they shouldn't be expected to feel unsafe so that trans feel 'recognized'.

As this movement grows and becomes more toxic I can't help but wonder how this translates into schools?. If a male child identifies as female will they want to be admitted to a female single sex school perhaps? what if the school is a residential boarding school? how on earth could a majority of biologically female children be safeguarded if a biological male is suddenly introduced into the mix?

If people wish to self-identify as a sex other than their biological gender (which is defined at cellular level and cannot be altered beyond the superficial) then perhaps having separate spaces (toilets / changing rooms / even schools etc) is the best way forward. This isn't a 'women's' issue in my view, its a trans issue and they are free to lobby for what they feel they are entitled to / need to feel recognized.

@titan89

a near 500 post thread on a topic that concerns whether a man can become a woman. No they can't. Every single cell for every use and every cell turned over carries a Y chromosome. Changing the exterior is completely irrelevant. What kind of society are we perpetuating here.

This is an argument rarely made but is possibly the most important one. The X and Y chromosomes are binary, they define what we are - while the exterior can be altered, the essence cannot. Identifying as the opposite sex cannot and will not change this. It is a fundamental biological reality that simply cannot be altered . While it's hard to make any logical argument in this space without risking being accused of bigotry, women and men are fundamentally different for this reason as countless studies demonstrate. What are the consequences of denying this? It's a worrying trend.

We shouldn't have to wait to be violated before being allowed boundaries.

Exactly.

I’m interested to know from those who say ”Men are going to commit sexual assault anyway”

How many women and girls being assaulted is a reasonable number before we take safeguarding seriously?

What’s your acceptable number of girls and women raped or murdered before you think it’s time to take action?

If a male child identifies as female will they want to be admitted to a female single sex school perhaps? what if the school is a residential boarding school? how on earth could a majority of biologically female children be safeguarded if a biological male is suddenly introduced into the mix?

This is ALREADY happening.

Look at what Helen Watts and Katie Alcock have been saying about this in relation to the Girl Guiding movement.

This vid is interesting. Not sure it has been linked up on this thread.

One of the first topics is Blaire White discussing how much hate they receive being an outspoken ... from the trans activists. This captures just some of the transmen and transwomen activists who are having rational conversations. Who try to bring honesty to the table. And how it is countered by the activists who insist on all or nothing.

There is so much on this clip it is worth watching it all.

Thank you, very informative video. I put it on for hubby to listen to while tidying. He's too lazy to read JKs essay but said it 100% made sense.