To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

As this movement grows and becomes more toxic I can't help but wonder how this translates into schools?. If a male child identifies as female will they want to be admitted to a female single sex school perhaps? what if the school is a residential boarding school? how on earth could a majority of biologically female children be safeguarded if a biological male is suddenly introduced into the mix?

I was told last year that if my daughter objected to changing with a boy at school, she would have to find somewhere else to change or lump it. I guess the same approach would apply to her Muslim friend who also wouldn't be able to share a changing room with a boy (however he identified).

This is happening in schools all over. Parents who may be concerned by this can look at Safe Schools Alliance and Transgender Trend and contact their school to express their concerns (and point out that this and mixed sex toilets are not lawful)

To answer the OP. I'm not sure that a middle ground can be reached with the people who are saying that Transwomen are Women as fact.

They deny biological reality and won't acknowledge that biological women have different issues from them, they say the issues are the same. Now when it comes to work place discrimination and access to single sex services and healthcare it is fairly clear that there are a large number of biological factors that apply to biological women and not to transwomen, take for example periods and childbirth. If we can't discuss these things because they deny this material reality then there will never be a middle ground.

This is a shame because we could really be allies, it also makes little sense that they claim to be women but deny them women the right to say that they face discrimination due to their sex or to have boundaries that don't include adult human males however they identify.

It is also a shame for the large number of transwomen who do NOT believe they are women. They are the recipients of abuse and the TERF slur just as much as we are.

What really angers me is that political parties and corporations have got behind this TWAW. Just this week The Green Party has stated that Transwomen are Women and that it is transphobic to say otherwise. The Labour Party is campaigning against period poverty but can't bring itself to acknowledge that this is an issue that affects girls. It talks about 'people' who have periods. The only kind of people who have periods are girls however they identify. It is campaigning against period poverty and its impact on school attendance whilst seemingly not giving a fig about whether girls feel comfortable without single sex spaces because it also believes that TWAW and that anyone who says they are a girl is one.

All of these things are creeping in without our consent. If we say we don't agree we are branded bigots.

I've never been so angry about anything in my life.

This is not progressive. Not for women and girls.

This is not progressive. Not for women and girls.

It's a massive backward step for safety and equality.

It's also a backward step for men/boys - after years of trying to break down stereotypes of what a 'man' should be we've come to a point where a boy who plays with girls toys or a man who enjoys wearing certain clothes/makeup are seen as not really male at all. Crazy.

It is a total madness, a total defiance of reality.
How can biological sex be outdated? Let me tell you a little story about birds and bees. Children are made by genes from one male and one female being, the same as for all other mammals and most other animal species. This is not ‘outdated’. I’m sorry if certain groups of privileged males are now having problems with biology, but women and girls have always had problems with biology and men rarely go out of their way to be kind about them.

‘Trans women have no interest in violating your spaces’, of course they do, that is exactly what we are arguing about. They’ve already done it, they are already pushing women and girls out of women’s sports, spaces and prizes everywhere. Some of this has had financial impacts: some of it has had security impacts, meaning women have already been physically harmed so that men’s egos need not be even the tiny bit bruised.

@Impatiens

This is not progressive. Not for women and girls.

It's a massive backward step for safety and equality.

It's also a backward step for men/boys - after years of trying to break down stereotypes of what a 'man' should be we've come to a point where a boy who plays with girls toys or a man who enjoys wearing certain clothes/makeup are seen as not really male at all. Crazy.

Absolutely, I was focusing on the impact on women and girls but you are right.

Boys who like princess toys and dresses are still boys.

When I was at University some men liked to wear makeup / have long hair and nails. They didn't think they were women and say that they felt discriminated against for not being able to use our loos. Why are effeminate men now women all of a sudden?

Why are effeminate men now women all of a sudden?

That's the $64,000 question.

Why are effeminate men now women all of a sudden?

Misogyny and homophobia.

I know of public school types who find camp incredibly threatening
but they find cross dressing as they call it fine

In countries with strict views on homosexuality, pretending to be a woman avoids Indonesia style beatings

‘Trans women have no interest in violating your spaces’

So why are they trying to have our right to single sex spaces, sport, etc. removed then?

I was told last year that if my daughter objected to changing with a boy at school, she would have to find somewhere else to change or lump it

Yes can't possibly hurt the 1 male childs feelings so our solution is to completely pretend that all the girls legal sex based protections to privacy, dignity and safety any from male people don't exist.

I do find it worrying how many women are willing to throw their dd’s under the bus.

I’m on a gymnastics forum and there was a discussion about a trans gymnast sharing changing rooms, toilets etc. The vast majority or mums were all oh my dd will be fine, of course it’s not a problem, children that age need to be kind, none are bothered about changing with a trans girl...

Also recently I learned that much of the TRA community are holding gymnasts up as a shining example of how puberty blockers don’t harm children. They are under the impression that all “cis parents” are giving their child gymnasts blockers with no worries, then get upset when trans children want to use them...

Hasn’t occurred to them that a lot of gymnasts hit puberty late because they are very fit, and the ones who go through it early tend to drop out as it’s tough to keep up with kids half your size, plus all the leotard discomfort.

Ok so it’s likely some of the old eastern bloc, USSR and china may have used them, but it hardly left those women unscathed.

I’m on a gymnastics forum and there was a discussion about a trans gymnast sharing changing rooms, toilets etc. The vast majority or mums were all oh my dd will be fine, of course it’s not a problem, children that age need to be kind, none are bothered about changing with a trans girl

I worry about the degree if "kindness" we teach our kids tbh.

How many adults would lend strangers in the park their car or lap top or phone. Yet we teach kids its kind to share even the most treasured possessions with complete strangers as it's "kind"

Then they end up punished/in trouble when it backfires. Something gets broken or stolen. Akd we do the same with their bodies too.

Yeah maybe they don't mind with a young classmate they have grown up with. But then we expect them to simultaneously know it doesn't apply to the grown mam who wants to drive them home from school one day.

Its not personal. And girls shouldn't have to put themselves at risk so boys/men/males don't take offence.

We really need to think about the long term messages rather than the feelings of individual people.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I’m on a gymnastics forum and there was a discussion about a trans gymnast sharing changing rooms, toilets etc. The vast majority or mums were all oh my dd will be fine, of course it’s not a problem, children that age need to be kind, none are bothered about changing with a trans girl

I worry about the degree if "kindness" we teach our kids tbh.

How many adults would lend strangers in the park their car or lap top or phone. Yet we teach kids its kind to share even the most treasured possessions with complete strangers as it's "kind"

Then they end up punished/in trouble when it backfires. Something gets broken or stolen. Akd we do the same with their bodies too.

Yeah maybe they don't mind with a young classmate they have grown up with. But then we expect them to simultaneously know it doesn't apply to the grown mam who wants to drive them home from school one day.

Its not personal. And girls shouldn't have to put themselves at risk so boys/men/males don't take offence.

We really need to think about the long term messages rather than the feelings of individual people.

This is a serious point. I am not teaching my DCs to be kind only. I am teaching them to become kind AND just. Even my primary age child knows why girls and boys shouldn’t play on the same team. Women really must stop teaching their daughters to be kind and pleasing.

Women really must stop teaching their daughters to be kind and pleasing

And remind them that saying no doesn't make them bossy. Having boundaries isn't unkind. They aren't being rude if they don't want to sit on uncle marks lap or talk to the stranger on the bus. Girls are not jealous to be people pleasers, peace keepers, and absorb all the crap the world throws at them without saying a word.

We seem to have alot of words fir girls who are assertive and know what they want and say no. And they aren't particularly nice. We should just stop it tbh.

Not here to be

Stupid phone

I didn't realise that with gymnastics the girls aren't allowed to wear knickers under their leotard.

So like with swimming. For kids most of this is done in schools with communal changing

I cannot be a reasonable woman when I see the damage that is being done . It is way too late and with notable , I feel emotion ,upset and angry about the lack of kindness towards women and girls. I refuse to give up anything at this stage. So no, we have been pushed too far

Sorry ...should read with the colonisation and appropriation that has happened ...

I didn't realise that with gymnastics the girls aren't allowed to wear knickers under their leotard

They are. There is no rule saying they don’t have to. In competition you can be deducted for underwear on show, but that is easily dealt with by dance or high legged underwear, or a bodystocking liner.

Many clubs have their own internal rules though. Generally because parents aren’t well informed about uniform standards. I’ve had kids turn up with boy shorts and big pants hanging out of a leotard. So they get strict and say none. Much of it is about control and discipline as we’ve seen over the last year.

But if your kid isn’t “allowed” to wear underwear, it’s the club you need to take it up with. If they won’t allow dance knickers or similar solution, find another club.

I’m glad this has been started I wouldn’t dare join in on anything in the trans threads. The only way would be no individual space so a toilet for everyone or a third toilet. Unfortunately that often means doubling up with the disabled and met with but we are not disabled. It’s not about being kind any decent person would want trans and every other type of person to feel safe and valued. Many religions forbid woman interacting with men so then to allow that in a same sex space would we not be being unkind to them. Truly difficult situation to resolve.

'I’m on a gymnastics forum and there was a discussion about a trans gymnast sharing changing rooms, toilets etc. The vast majority or mums were all oh my dd will be fine, of course it’s not a problem, children that age need to be kind, none are bothered about changing with a trans girl'

But the changing rooms, if it's in a school hall, which many clubs are, it's communal changing. And a wide age range.

So in practice this means girls and women aged 4-60 or similar, getting naked in communal changing with boys and men aged 4-60 or similar

The people who run the clubs are often older and they run from little kids to, well, much older.

And that is fine.

But do the mums who are aok understand that it means if there is a 16, 20, 30, 50 yo who self IDs as a woman then they will be in communal changing where girls and women of all ages are getting naked?

I don’t know your mates. Nobody knows anybody in public spaces.

Women are under no obligation to be kind here. They are our vulnerable spaces and because they are public they need to be sex segregated. End of.

No. Sex is binary & immutable.
If you have to declare to the world you 'identify' as something, just to give everyone the heads up, you're not that thing in any meaningful way.

Wow what a mixed bag of responses.

Totally agree with you @loopyapp

*I know this is a challenging subject and for some people it can trigger quite visceral reactions.. However equating this issue with racism and Israel/Palestine is just.. Horrendous.. and makes you look stupid and lessens your cause.

You don't have to compromise an inch on your stand point that women need spaces that dont allow room for anyone born with a penis to stop being an abusive bully. You can be seething, frothing and boiling beneath the surface and still be a decent human being.

If your only response to a genuine question is to snipe with dismissive sarcasm then you are doing nothing but harming the cause you're apparently speaking for.

Would you be able to take anyone seriously who Behaves the way some of you are behaving here??

The answer to this I think is that the elements on both sides of this that can have a discussion about it without behaving like surly toddlers need to come together and put the issue to bed.

As a mother of four boys I can honestly say that at no point past the age of 5 or 6 that they should ever expect use of a changing space or bathroom that a member of the opposite sex uses.

If elements of the person they grow up to be mean that they might not be or feel safe in fascillaties intended for men then i would hope that a third safe space exist.

Being rightly excluded from a woman's space doesn't mean any person should be at risk of harm either.

No, that is not my problem as a woman to solve but as a mother of boys I would happily be part of a movement to help find appropriate third spaces for anyone who might not perfectly fit into one of only two perfect molds.*

@DeaconBoo What sort of thing did you have in mind?

A third option I suppose? Or would that have to be 3rd & 4th to cover trans women & trans men?

I honestly don't have all the answers.
It just feels like both sides continuing to be so angry & unable to listen isn't really getting us anywhere.

And thanks so much for the link to the middle ground thread!

Smiledwiththerisingsun

Third spaces, and third and fourth have been suggested many times, but you obviously know that. There are transpeople petitioning for it as well. They are overwhelmed on social media with abuse from the trans activists sadly.

But still, they fight on and we support them when we can.