To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

I agree that table manners are important but I don’t equate ‘ketchup etiquette’ with holding a knife and fork and not eating with your mouth full etc. But the bigger issue here is your DH undermining you in front of your children while you teach them to hold utensils.

Oh do one! Ketchup isn't a high brow food? Get over yourself. And in my life I haven't got the time to worry about how people put ketchup on their food and I certainly wouldn't judge them for it. If I have a roast dinner, I have to have it swimming in gravy, others like little. It doesn't matter.
As for the knife and fork. Aren't people right and left handed, so that would decide which hand they have it in.
There's having table manners, then there's being ridiculous. I certainly wouldn't argue with my husband over it.

Yanbu

I'm not voting because technically both answers are correct. Etiquette states that sauces are served on the side in a formal setting. However, no body in the real world gives a flying fuck on how you eat your chips. They will never be served in a formal setting. Time and place is key here

I wouldn’t say it’s a judgment thing as such, more that it can make people feel uncomfortable if you have poor table manners. I find people who have not got table manners tend to be messy and inconsiderate eaters. Hands and elbows flailing, food around their plate etc.

The ketchup thing isn’t really an issue but people do notice table manners including how cutlery is held so YANBU there

Anywhere the sauce is served in a squeezy bottle isn’t going to be somewhere people are judging. 😂

YABU. I agree in that table manners are important. I don't agree that it matters what hand the knife is held in or how ketchup is poured on a plate. Talking with your mouth full, swinging back on your chair etc are things to have a battle about. You sound pretty snobby to be honest with your comment about ketchup being 'high brow'. If you think you and your family are too good for it, don't buy it.

Oh my. Heard it all now.

I've never really thought about ketchup and table manners before, but apart from on a cone of chips I've never seen anyone squirt it everywhere before. I squirt a blob on the side of my plate, DH and his family use little dip bowls.

I think you are doing the right thing in teaching your DC table manners, you wouldn't want them feeling uncomfortable the first time they eat somewhere more formal.

Yanbu.

Ketchup aside, you are right that table manners are important and also both parents supporting each other is also important.

Maybe talk to your DH away from meals and explain that having table manners is important socially and that you need the children’s father to be onboard with teaching the DC how to eat in an acceptable way.

I don't dine with the Queen, so I am free to squirt my ketchup all over my fish and chips.

Well the ‘high brow’ with the (!) to show that is wasn’t serious was to pre-empt all the comments saying “oh well blah blah you shouldn’t use ketchup in a fancy restaurant anyway” because actually I am someone who asks for ketchup even tho some people look down on the use of ketchup in a ‘nice’ restaurant.

But seems even that comment has upset some people!

My mil would part agree but go further. Ketchup would rarely be allowed and if it was, would be decanted into a ramekin dish then served only with a tea spoon onto the Side of the plate.

She would say the same for any condiment. And don't get me started on her soup eating etiquette.

My friend has a brilliant system. A, B and C manners. At home I expect B manners. No burping, sit nicely, closed mouth for chewing. But ketchup and cutlery are less policed. A manners are for out or GPs visiting. All absolutely 'proper'. Restaurants and the like. C manners are for daddy meals, on holiday or food like ribs or tacos. Hands are fine, even burping is allowed as long as mummy isn't nearby.

Helps them learn manners, not be too constrained, and the very important skill of adjusting their behaviour to fit. I learned it early being a commoner from South London who had to fit in with naicer society.

You are absolutely right in saying rightly or wrongly people will judge.

Just like please and thank you, good table manners matter.

Your husband needs to respect that and maybe learn a few himself.

because actually I am someone who asks for ketchup even tho some people look down on the use of ketchup in a ‘nice’ restaurant.

Then you can’t really complain. You do what you want - let her do what she wants.

I give a flying fuck! I absolutely judge people who use their knife and fork back to front, wave their cutlery about in the air, or eat with their mouth open. Or yes, splatter ketchup all over everything.

It’s none of my business and I would never say anything, of course. But I’m thinking.

I think these things matter more to some people than others. I have never really paid attention to how people use cutlery or where they put their ketchup, as long as the people I’m dining with aren’t talking with their mouth full, making a massive mess on the table or burping loudly etc then I don’t really care which hand they hold their knife in.

@MrsTerryPratchett YES exactly that’s the convo I’ve had with husband. I want them to learn the A Manners for when they need them and use the B and C manners at home.

He doesn’t think A manners are important or even really exist in this century (he doesn’t obviously want burping at the table but etiquette surrounding how to use cutlery or pour ketchup he thinks I’ve made up)

Your post is exactly what I believe.

It’s none of my business and I would never say anything, of course. But I’m thinking.

Why? As you state it's none of you business, so why get emotionally involved?

Yawn - more boring Hyacinth Buckets who judge people for holding their knife in the ‘wrong’ hand. I am left-handed and have held my knife in my left hand since early childhood. I physically cannot eat the other way round. Only on mumsnet is this seen as some hideous breach of etiquette.

@MyristicaFragrans

I give a flying fuck! I absolutely judge people who use their knife and fork back to front, wave their cutlery about in the air, or eat with their mouth open. Or yes, splatter ketchup all over everything.

It’s none of my business and I would never say anything, of course. But I’m thinking.

What is it you are thinking though? What judgement are you making? What is the big deal about someone holding their knife in the wrong hand?