To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

Manners are important. I come from a background where we were taught to be polite, but I now have a professional role and there is definitely a higher standard that I missed out on learning at a younger age.

I meet people in their early twenties now who know how to eat properly, to ask and listen and to lead a conversation that isn't about them. I struggled by comparison. They will progress more quickly as a result.

Equally socially I mix with a wide range of people and having those skills makes a huge difference. As someone said upthread being able to adjust to different situations is important.

If your children are never going to be invited to tea at the Ritz, or dinner at the Ivy, then table manners might seem to be a waste of time. But parents don’t know that, so they should do everything in their power to equip their children with the knowledge of what is expected in each different situation
Oh I see, parents who don't follow a very long list of rules must be writing their children off and aren't nearly as aspirational enough.

I've been for tea at the Ritz and still managed just fine eating left handed because I don't keep company with the sort of people who spend ages patting themselves on the back for being right handed.

I was brought up knowing the difference between squeezing ketchup on your chips at the beach vs spooning your mayonnaise on the side of your plate. My parents weren't the sort of arseholes who policed what hands people used their cutlery though because what's the point?

There's a hint of Hyacinth Bucket aspirational performative middle class about some attitudes in this thread that smack of 'I'm such an awesome parent because I'm bringing my child up to judge others who don't tear their bread rolls correctly'.

YANBU

Honestly, how can people get worked up over these things?! I have a child with additional needs. We have food thrown all over the place, picked apart, foods chewed and spat back on the plate, no use of cutlery, eating one mouthful and running off, as much sauce as they bloody well want poured all over it if it means they'll eat it.

As long as you have bums on seats, chewing with mouths closed and actual use of cutlery, then I'd say you're winning.

Well if you take them to a posh restaurant, ketchup will be served in a ramekin dish with a little spoon. They can't squirt it on their plate.

You could try that at home and see if they manage?

We don't have table manner 'rules' at the dinner table on an every day basis, but every Sunday we have a proper roast and they make an effort to serve the food correctly and not eat with their fingers. They set the table correctly too. Mind you they are teenagers now.

Maybe manage your expectations a bit better, if you give them fish fingers and chips on a week night they can do what they like, but once in a while, on a special meal, make sure that you expect them to use good table manners.

There is a difference between "refained" table manners and not upsetting other people at the table (I like the concept of A, B and C manners!)
Your children need to learn the "unwritten rules" so that they know how not to show themselves up, and the tricky bit is getting the subtleties of when formality is needed. In a more formal situation, people will not comment aloud, but they will judge. I've seen a promising job candidate blow their chances after a morning of good interviews, by acting like a pig at the trough when lunchtime came around, when part of the job entailed entertaining clients. But being too formal in a more relaxed setting looks ridiculous.
I think it comes down to empathy and consideration for other people at the table - is the way you are eating unpleasant to watch?
My cousin went through a revolting stage, pushing the boundaries; his mother cured him by sitting him in front of a mirror.

This sounds more like personal preference than table manners? Personally I like to put ketchup on my side and dip because you get a more even ketchup ratio (rather than the chips on top being drenched and the bottom being dry).

I wouldn't have married DH if he didn't know how to use cutlery correctly. Seriously. It is just something that is really important to me, and so easy to get right. Why would you not? Personally I do notice when people hold their cutlery poorly.

I'm not saying I'm right to judge, BTW - but your DH is wrong to think people don't.

YaBU to refer to ketchup.

In formal settings it is called Red Sauce. And cones in a small dish with a spoon.

I (usually) have to attend a lot of formal events with DH. Sometimes we are expected to take the children as well (from newborns... But their table manners aren't judged). Amazingly, no one is ever judged for being left handed, or confusing their cutlery. Pass the Port in the wrong direction however...

(On a serious note, I do agree that children should be told to eat politely. But some things are just convention and vary in different countries).

.y SM was obsessed with table manners when I was growing up. It took all easier from family meals for me and my dad who wasn't bothered. I used to feel that every moved I made were watched, looking for a reason to pick me up. It made me really resent her.

I made a point of not inflicting this to my own kids. Their table manners were not great as a result, but we spoke about them outside of meals at home and unsurprisingly really, they can distinguish between home and meals out and act with perfect table manners in these occasions.

Table manners is really not hard to learn when you need to. Not something worth stressing kids about and turning meals into a stressful event.

cheeseismydownfall
The thing is everyone has a different threshold of correctly with some people scrambling to prove how they follow every last rule in some etiquette book.

For example, technically (as I found from a sibling's time in hospitality) teaspoons should never be used for jam and one must always have jam spoons. Do the people on this thread saying they'd judge someone for eating left handed because it's ugly genuinely ensure that if anyone stays over they have a breakfast spread with jam spoons? I doubt it.

That's my issue with most of the self-proclaimed dinner table snobs: there's no way they all follow all the rules from Debrett's but they choose to follow just enough enable them to feel comfortable looking down on others.

Ketchup used to come in glass bottles, the only way to get some out was to turn it upside down and whack the base - this resulted in a blob on the spot aimed for

You only got a squirty plastic tomato if you went to Wimpy

Perhaps you are not so much snobby as old fashioned?

Table manners matter though in my book

IMO you can use ketchup to draw houses on your plate if that's what you like AND you're in your own home, possibly alone.

However it is very important to be able to read the room and adopt the correct (table) manners wherever you are. Anyone who wishes to work in a professional environment for example, will find that they regularly have to dine out with clients, prospects, colleagues, etc and if someone is not able to represent the company suitably, they will absolutely not advance as quickly or as high as someone who can project the right image. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken, IMO.

I don't care how my kids put their ketchup on. Nor do I particularly care how they hold their knife and fork or which hand they are in. I do care that they can eat nicely without making too much mess, can sit still, don't talk with their mouths full but still have conversation between that, and enjoy their food. Seems to have worked well so far, they are all young adults/teens now and don't have a problem with meals.

My mum was forever going on about how I held my knife and fork and it made me not want to eat in front of her. I didn't want my children to be uncomfortable, and the way I use cutlery has never ever affected my life in anyway, in company or not, so it's not a battle I chose to have with my children.

Wow I never knew there was a proper way to eat ketchup. You live and learn!

I'm not sure ketchup is the hill I'd chose to die on, but I do think manners are important. I'm more concerned with cutlery use (as in using some! Not which hand!), not wiping faces or hands all over the place, pleases and thank yous and not belching. Oh and my biggest one is not eating with your mouth full! Nobody wants to see that!

Obviously I meant not talking with your mouth full! Sorry

I think you're taking it too far and so now they won't take you seriously at all. I really don't think it matters how they have their sauce and it comes across a bit controlling to tell them where they should put it on their food.
I do think basic table manners are important and most importantly to teach them to not talk with their mouth full.
Also if they are ever eating a super fancy place chances are the ketchup will be served in a small dish with a serving spoon, so they won't be able to slap it all over their food anyway.

If this is the straw that broke the camel’s back you’re in for a rough ride in life.

Over the years I have had to attend loads of very formal dinners and have been so surprised by the amount of people I've met who have admitted that they are intimidated by the social 'ettiquette' of the meal that they are about to eat, to me, it really dosent matter which piece of cutlery you use, ie, using your bread knife for your main course, so long as you can say please and thank you and eat with your mouth closed, however, it really does seem to bother them! I think it must be pure bloody torture to not know how to behave/present yourself in a formal setting and I feel very sorry for some I have met that have wound themselves up in knots over it. So, Yes, I think it is very important to teach children table manners, you never know where life will take them, if they decide to become a high court judge or a lorry driver, the other people in the truck stop or the court dinner would prefer them to eat with their mouths closed.

I agree that table manners are important.

However, a situation in which table manners are very important is unlikely to involve ketchup and if it did, the ketchup would not be presented in a squeezy bottle.

So chill.

My grandmother taught me 'very' refined table manners as a child, but never in a nasty or aggressive way, and she taught me as a 'so you know for when you're in that kind of situation' thing.

She also taught me how to navigate conversations at formal events, which direction to expect the waiting staff to come from for different moments in a meal, what different dress codes mean, debone a fish neatly and effectively, pour wine from a decanter, curtsey correctly....

I very, very rarely have to do any of those things, AND it feels like a lovely gift from her to know that when I am in those situations, I'm equipped to manage them confidently and gracefully.

Part of parenting is preparing your kids to manage all kinds of situations. It doesn't hurt them to KNOW the 'rules', even if they don't use them every day. I don't judge people who don't know them, and I also feel glad that I do.

Sounds like your DH is a little on the defensive side, perhaps, if he feels so strongly about it?

My grandmother taught me 'very' refined table manners as a child

Did ketchup feature in her teaching?

You are correct - people do judge.

I wouldn't get too het up over the ketchup but I'm afraid if I had a date with someone who couldn't use his cutlery correctly it would be an absolute deal breaker.

@TheKeatingFive

My grandmother taught me 'very' refined table manners as a child

Did ketchup feature in her teaching?

Not explicitly, but what to do with sauces, yes, depending on what they came in. Dipping pots, bottles, gravy boats...

They're kids. Let them enjoy their food for goodness sake.