To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

I really like the idea of A B C manners.

I also think it's important to learn the basics so that you can navigate through different environments with ease as an adult.

Aussie meat pies OP, discuss.

Every evening my husband stabs 53 pieces of everything onto his fork so loudly that you can hear every “Plink, Plink, Scritch, Scrape”, then stuffs the over-full load into his mouth, then yells at the kids about their table manners. Afterwards, he sucks his greedy fingers until I want to throw up. No amount of telling him that there are not two sets of rules.... Gaaaaah!
Meanwhile, my DDs don’t want to sit next to him or my son who seem to amplify everything in their mouths.... I am considering divorce.

Why on Earth are there so many posts on here about which way left handers should and shouldn’t use cutlery? Why not start your own thread....

Because you started a thread about table manners and included something about using cutlery correctly. There is clearly a debate about whether using your knife in a certain hand is bad manners. You don't get to control a thread just because you started it.

Why on Earth are there so many posts on here about which way left handers should and shouldn’t use cutlery? Why not start your own thread....
OP starts thread about 'correct' manners, including people not using cutlery correctly, people continue the discussion, OP returns to tell everyone off for continuing the discussion because in her absence it didn't go the way she wanted.

Are you always this uptight OP?

Is there an acceptable list of relevant rules that were allowed on this thread, including a pat on the back for correct ketchup-ing?

I agree that table manners are important as poor table manners can impact on others’ enjoyment of their meals. Ketchup on the side, unless at the fair/seaside.

For the left vs right argument, we now live in such a multicultural country that claiming one is preferable over the other comes from a place of ignorance. For many holding their fork with their left hand would be unimaginable as it is considered unclean. Right or left is perfectly acceptable.

I think maybe my opinions on this are coloured by having a child with complex needs, who struggles to hold cutlery properly, makes a massive mess and has huge issues around eating and food - I am just happy when we are sat around a table, everyone is happy and people are enjoying their food with no pressure.

I don't like seeing ketchup and mayo all over the food but then have my roast swimming in gravy so there you go. I am not a huge fan of either ketchup and mayo so only ever eat it on the side. I use the fork in my right hand as was always taught you eat food with your right hand and never left. My kids prefer to use their hands if eating pizza and I am OK with that as we eat with our hands a lot anyway. I am working on how to hold cutlery with my two and give attention to the meal they are eating but it is a work in progress. Good table manners to me are sitting in the seat, not standing or rocking, eating with mouth closed and not chewing so loud you sound like a cement mixer or slurping when eating soup.

Not you, insertfunnyname - I’m referring to the other people on this thread who think holding your knife in the left hand is ‘wrong’ or looks ‘ugly’. It’s anti-left handed prejudice and I am sick of it.

It drives me mad when right handed people do this. I think because it leads to using the knife to hold food on your plate while the fork is used to drag other food away.

OP

I have a lot of complaints about my mother, but one thing I do think she got right was the table manners. You never know where you will end up in life or how you will get there.

Good table manners are extremely important. Holding your knife and fork properly means you don't jab the person next to you with your elbows. You should place a side sauce on the side of your plate. Bread rolls need to be torn before you butter it. It's nothing to do with class it just manners

Reasonable table manners are important to be considerate of others who share your table.
Understanding formal dining etiquette may be important if you are working or socialising in formal settings. Cutting your bread roll will see a few interested/amused glances and may not do you any favours in some situations.
Nobody who serves ketchup in a bottle that can be squeezed is going to worry about where it’s put. You can’t put it on the side of takeaway sausage and chips, after all.
In smarter restaurants, condiments would usually be served with a spoon not in a bottle. Coronavirus seems to have boosted the coffers of those ghastly plastic sachet companies, so it will evolve yet.

It's nothing to do with class it just manners
It is 100% to do with class, and culture.

@HazeyJaneII

It's nothing to do with class it just manners It is 100% to do with class, and culture.

No , it’s manners . It costs nothing to have manners

If your children are never going to be invited to tea at the Ritz, or dinner at the Ivy, then table manners might seem to be a waste of time. But parents don’t know that, so they should do everything in their power to equip their children with the knowledge of what is expected in each different situation.
As a parent I would have failed, if one of my children were made to feel bad about a perceived lack of finesse at such an establishment, and whilst it’s unlikely that the staff at these would be judgemental, there is no accounting for the other guests. So YANBU, quite the opposite, OP, and DH needs to understand the concept of “bringing up children” as more than just a motor-skill, by socialising them to the society they live in...

My disability means I use my fork in my right hand and my knife in my left. It's the only way I can eat with cutlery without pain, or making a mess (I just cannot co-ordinate my left hand nicely to my mouth).

I judge anyone who would prefer to see me in pain and dropping food all over the place than to use my fork in my right hand tbh - I don't think I'm the one with bad manners in that situation.

The only etiquette for serving tomato sauce is to decant it into one of those squeezy dispensers in the shape of tomato.

He's eating 'street food style', you're eating at a table.

As with anything, the DC need to know and be competent at performing the rules, before they can make reasonable choices about when to break them.

As for ketchup, there isn't an issue, because the sort of places that require Grade A manners do not serve ketchup. Or if they do, it's in ramekins, not squeezy plastic bottles.

If your children are never going to be invited to tea at the Ritz, or dinner at the Ivy, then table manners might seem to be a waste of time. But parents don’t know that, so they should do everything in their power to equip their children with the knowledge of what is expected in each different situation.
As a parent I would have failed, if one of my children were made to feel bad about a perceived lack of finesse at such an establishment, and whilst it’s unlikely that the staff at these would be judgemental, there is no accounting for the other guests. So YANBU, quite the opposite, OP, and DH needs to understand the concept of “bringing up children” as more than just a motor-skill, by socialising them to the society they live in...

They won't serve ketchup in a squeezy bottle at the Ivy though so they will be safe from shaming themselves!

Table manners are extremely important. My children wait for everyone to have been served before starting, hold their cutlery correctly, know which knife and for to use for which course in a restaurant, will put sauces on the side, immediately put their napkin on their laps and use it, tear their bread and put some butter on the side of the plate first, before using that bit of butter on one mouthful sized piece of bread, etc etc. Theres been no nagging, they've been taught and grown up around others who do the same.

They are also taught and expected to use good table manners at school.

I do judge others that have bed table manners i'm afraid. Sorry!

Reading this thread you'd think 'Table Manners' are the key to success, Yet the smacking, slurpy noises, bizarre use of a fork as a spoon and repetitive shovelling into the face hole action of former public schoolboys follows lots of them into adulthood and they're running the bloody country anyway.

It's as if table manners are one of those Middle Class things people imagine have more impact than they actually do. I used to see parents totally unaware they were attracting the negative attention of other tables by constantly correcting their kids manners, it's horrible to see, eating is supposed to be enjoyable.

Bum on seat at all times, cutlery in the correct hands and not waved around, do not show others whats inside your mouth at any point, kids don't need any more than that.

I agree in regards to table manners, ie correct use of cutlery, not eating either mouth open etc. People do judge and it is unpleasant to eat with someone who eats disgustingly.

However sauce is not important at all and not what I would consider table manners, let them eat it how they want.

Good for you, OP. I did go on a date once and the man made a big deal of asking for kethup and pouring it all over, so I never saw him again. I'm from a council estate in Tower Hamlets and even I bloody know you don't pour ketchup all over your food. Except chips obvs. X

@lilmishap

Reading this thread you'd think 'Table Manners' are the key to success, Yet the smacking, slurpy noises, bizarre use of a fork as a spoon and repetitive shovelling into the face hole action of former public schoolboys follows lots of them into adulthood and they're running the bloody country anyway.

It's as if table manners are one of those Middle Class things people imagine have more impact than they actually do. I used to see parents totally unaware they were attracting the negative attention of other tables by constantly correcting their kids manners, it's horrible to see, eating is supposed to be enjoyable.

Bum on seat at all times, cutlery in the correct hands and not waved around, do not show others whats inside your mouth at any point, kids don't need any more than that.

This made me laugh...it's so true! X

Surely every parent wants to equip their child with life skills, so the child feels confident in any social situation?
Why would you let your child grow up ignorant of basic table etiquette, so they panic when faced with a formal meal (eg a wedding reception, a date at a grand restaurant, high table at university, etc). If they have practised this at home, they will be relaxed and able to enjoy the occasion, knowing they are not letting themselves down or revealing a gap in their education.