To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

@bookworm14

Yawn - more boring Hyacinth Buckets who judge people for holding their knife in the ‘wrong’ hand. I am left-handed and have held my knife in my left hand since early childhood. I physically cannot eat the other way round. Only on mumsnet is this seen as some hideous breach of etiquette.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.

YABU
I put ketchup at the side and dip. But not because of etiquette but because that's how I like to eat my food.
If someone told me how to use my ketchup I'd tell them to get lost.
My kids dont like ketchup. But some people like all over the food and some like it in the corner. Same with beans.

I like mine in the corner and not all over the food.
I once went to the canteen and grabbed lunch. Chips a cheese and onion pie and beans.
The lady started pouring the beans all over the chips. 'No! Stop!' I was just so shocked and disgusted I just stood there trying to take it all in. I couldn't believe what she had done.
Seriously theres some things you shouldn't mess with. I respect the decisions of people who like their beans/ ketchup all over the food/ chips. And respect my right to eat my food my way.
Thanks. Sorry just too shocked you're trying to make people change their food habits.
If my way was thought to be the wrong and someone tried to put ketchup all over my food they'd find out about it.
And I think if they enjoy their food the other way leave them to it.

@Ifailed well I think everyone judges poor manners. If the person on the bus opposite you was sitting with their hands in their pants it’s none of your business and doesn’t effect you but you’d probably inwardly wish they had better manners.

Squirting ketchup on your food isn’t bad manners. It’s possibly a breach of convention. So what, though?

@bookworm14 he isn’t left handed. Of course left handers eat the other way. It’s knife in dominant hand.

@Ifailed I’m not ‘emotionally involved’. Where did I say that? I’m just vaguely thinking ‘that looks ugly’ and finding it depressing.

Not you, insertfunnyname - I’m referring to the other people on this thread who think holding your knife in the left hand is ‘wrong’ or looks ‘ugly’. It’s anti-left handed prejudice and I am sick of it.

I judge poor table manners and so think it is important to teach children well. However I think with ketchup anything goes!

@icedaisy

My mil would part agree but go further. Ketchup would rarely be allowed and if it was, would be decanted into a ramekin dish then served only with a tea spoon onto the Side of the plate.

She would say the same for any condiment. And don't get me started on her soup eating etiquette.

I bet she pushes her spoon, a proper soup spoon, away from her body and tips the soup plate, not bowl, away from her!
Oddly my very working class father always insisted that soup should be pushed away from one's body and I cannot eat soup, or drink soup to be 'correct', other than with a soup spoon! Dead posh I am and I don't squirt ketchup either, can't stand the stuff.

I agree about the ketchup, and table manners in general.
Like it or not, people will judge.

We had a friend (no longer with us) whose table manners were appalling - talking with a mouth full of food, shovelling food in anyhow, making revolting, grunting, squelching pig noises. Whenever we had to eat with him, there was invariably a (discreet) fight among our dcs about who was not going to sit opposite him - it really did turn your stomach.

He was a man who’d been very successful,professionally, so even if his parents didn’t teach him, I will never understand how he didn’t pick up better manners by seeing how other people behave.

@Insertfunnyname then maybe he’s mixed handed, like me.

I write with my right hand but do practically everything else left-handed, including eating.

I know plenty of left-handers who eat right handed.

Neither is more correct than the other, just one is more common.

Poor table manners are gross.
And they will be judged by people as they get older.
However I consider poor manners to be more like talking with your mouth full, waving cutlery around, making a mess etc.
Rather than where they apply their ketchup, or even what hand they hold their knife and fork in.

I don't really think the ketchup thing matters. But table manners do. You might choose to be more relaxed at home. But it's actually a bit of a disservice to your children for them not to know proper table manners. As they then don't have that choice and it could be quite embarrassing if they're eating like little piggies! Or if they get to adults and have poor manners.

How bad are your dh's table manners?

@bookworm14

Yawn - more boring Hyacinth Buckets who judge people for holding their knife in the ‘wrong’ hand. I am left-handed and have held my knife in my left hand since early childhood. I physically cannot eat the other way round. Only on mumsnet is this seen as some hideous breach of etiquette.

That's not true at all, of course Mumsnet isn't the only place where people value good table manners, not sure why you'd think that

I dont eat ketchup so I don't know the proper way to do it but ITA that good table manners are important

Can I add not using your phone at the table to the manners list, don't even have it on the table taking sneaky looks at it.

I like the concept of A B C manners. I think you are going way OTT about the ketchup though, and you do come off a bit snobby. But using cutlery correctly (incorporating matters of handedness) is basic stuff.

[quote Insertfunnyname]@bookworm14 he isn’t left handed. Of course left handers eat the other way. It’s knife in dominant hand.[/quote]
I don't get this. I'm left handed. Fork in left hand. It has to spear food and carry it to my mouth. Clever hand. Knife in right hand. It has to cut back and forth. Stupid hand

I like the idea about A B and C manners.

Why not have one meal a week/month that is A manners, for practicing? Maybe the Sunday roast or similar. Then have B rules most of the time, including ketchup just wherever. That reduces the stress.

I do think it makes a difference in certain settings, and is an important life skill. If you get invited to a formal dinner with a client, your ability to close the deal will unfortunately depend on their view of you personally, including how you eat.

We recently took the kids to a nice restaurant and they sat on their bottoms, ate with cutlery, and didn’t run loops round the table! I was shocked as it never happens at home. I won’t tell you about the ketchup though....

That's not true at all, of course Mumsnet isn't the only place where people value good table manners, not sure why you'd think that

BUT WHY IS IT BAD TABLE MANNERS TO HOLD YOUR KNIFE IN YOUR LEFT HAND?

I have a physical difference - left handedness - which means I can only eat this way. Why is it wrong? I don’t make a mess, or speak with my mouth full, or drop food, or anything else - so why is it a problem?

Wouldnt care or give a thought about ketchup! But yes. Table manners are super important. And being able to hold cutlery. Definitely something i woud judge someone for. It is so cringe worthy as it is a basic skill. Keep teaching your kids re cuttlery but let go of the ketchup thing op..

Being uber class and etiquette conscious is the absolute ultimate sign of being lower class I'm afraid OP. Desperately trying to fit in just marks you out as a wannabe.

(I didn't make the rules, but I've socialised with the proper old upper classes, and worrying about using the right fork etc is very much a marker of the lower middle/working class.)

My kids have ketchup and Mayo in separate tiny Pyrex bowls I stole from a hotel.

@thecatsthecats Christ, what’s wrong with being working class??? Are they not allowed to have manners now?

I can’t keep up with all the rules. So working class aren’t meant to use any manners or etiquette in case you look working class (and that’s a disaster ) - is that right?

Table manners are really important. As is learning to hold conversation over a meal. Sorry but I do judge people who burp loudly at the table (certain members of the wider family) and who shovel food in one-handed without looking up.

These things might not seem important when they're young but it's so valuable as an adult when you could be thrown into any dining situation. Being adaptable is key!

I think you are right op.

Proper good manners aren't about using the right fork or showing people up or being snooty; they are all about showing consideration for others:

• passing the serving plate around to others before serving yourself
• being aware of passing things to others, pouring water etc
• not making any slurpy or offensive noises or eating with your mouth open
• not starting before everyone is served (unless host directs you to do so)
• not looking at your phone during a meal
• not getting up in the middle of a meal, excusing yourself if adult, asking permission to leave table if child
• not helping yourself to more than you can eat
• saying please and thank you

^ These are all about being helpful, or not causing disruption or offense to others. I suppose splattering ketchup all over everywhere could be potentially upsetting to the person who has cooked... a bit like people who season food before tasting it, so YANBU!

And YY your DH needs to grow up a bit and be aware he is setting an example. I live in a country where communal eating for children at nursery is seen very much viewed as a learning experience and is taken very seriously.

Having said all of that, at home we just squeeze a small amount of ketchup on to the side of the plate and I think that's fine; no need for ramekins etc.