To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

Same here, LolaSmiles. I can’t understand why holding your utensils left-handed is lumped in with talking with your mouth full, using your phone at the table, dropping food etc. As long as you are not impacting other people, what on earth is the problem (other than, as you say, wanting to keep people out of your special club)?

Good table manners are definitely important. If your children ever get jobs where they need to dine out with clients or colleagues then they will need excellent table manners to be second nature so that they can focus on the important stuff rather than trying to work out which fork to use.
A natural, well mannered host at the table also puts their guests at ease.

bookworm14
It all feels a little Hyacinth Bucket to me.

Then again it wasn't that long ago that children had their hands tied behind their back because writing with their left hand was some disgusting act that caused much offense.

I'm still tickled by the idea that people won't get promotions for holding a fork in the wrong hand and parents will tell their child not to date someone they love as they can 'do so much better than someone who eats ketchup incorrectly'.

I guess that explains why you was a manager. You were shockingly bad if you rated peoples table manners, you should have been rating your chefs ability to cause people to forget their manners,

How'd you feel about mayo?

I care about table manners, the ones that matter, eating with your mouth closed, being able to use cutlery well, waiting til everyone's finished to leave the table or asking to be excused, not making a load of nasty noises when eating etc. I don't care which hand you hold your fork and knife in as long as you hold them and use them correctly. I think sauce all over your food is vile, but if that's how you like it, go ahead, it's definitely not to do with manners but personal preference. I think you're getting your knickers in a twist unnecessarily on the sauce front, but yes table manners are important
I shall never remember the threats from my nan if putting our elbows in pans if we ate with our elbows on the table

@LolaSmiles

bookworm14 It all feels a little Hyacinth Bucket to me.

Then again it wasn't that long ago that children had their hands tied behind their back because writing with their left hand was some disgusting act that caused much offense.

I'm still tickled by the idea that people won't get promotions for holding a fork in the wrong hand and parents will tell their child not to date someone they love as they can 'do so much better than someone who eats ketchup incorrectly'.

I feel if someone is judged on worthy on their Ketchup choices then the last thing they want to do is marry into that crazy family so I'd be grateful for the easy out lol

YANBU to enforce table manners but YABU to think there’s an etiquette to ketchup.

[quote Insertfunnyname]@bookworm14 he isn’t left handed. Of course left handers eat the other way. It’s knife in dominant hand.[/quote]
See, to me the wise way to go is the pokey thing that goes towards my face, aka the fork is in my dominant hand
I want control of something coming at my face

But in saying that, i kind of think if you worried about what hand my fork is in, you must be pretty lucky to have very little else going on

@LolaSmiles

bookworm14 It all feels a little Hyacinth Bucket to me.

Then again it wasn't that long ago that children had their hands tied behind their back because writing with their left hand was some disgusting act that caused much offense.

I'm still tickled by the idea that people won't get promotions for holding a fork in the wrong hand and parents will tell their child not to date someone they love as they can 'do so much better than someone who eats ketchup incorrectly'.

It’s totally Hyacinth Bucket. And yes, anti-left handed prejudice seems to be alive and well in some circles.

I think basic table manners are important and love the idea of A, B and C manners (wish I had thought if it when my children were younger).

I think there is a good reason for holding cutlery the 'right way' - which is that you have better control. It doesn't matter for some food, but it makes life much easier if you are eating anything that needs precision - eg meat or fish on the bone. For that reason I don't care if left-handed people eat with their knife and fork in the 'wrong' hand, though actually everyone in my family who is left-handed (mother, sister, one of my daughters) eats the right handed way.

I agree that sauces belong on the side of the plate. My grandparents used to do that with salt too.

Do the people getting all upset about fork positioning etc understand that these are all culturally-specific invented rules?

If you don't understand that then your "manners" have set you up to offend and alienate people rather than ease your way through social situations.

Some of the things people are holding up as "the way" and being judgemental about would be considered rude in other cultures.

People do judge - that says more about them than it does about anyone else.

I don't care how people use their utensils or what utensils they use, I certainly don't care how they arrange their ketchup.
As long as they don't blow their nose on the tablecloth then I'm ok.
I don't see how the way that other people are eating has anything to do with me. It certainly doesn't affect me.

One of the reasons I don't care is because I have a lot of disabled friends who eat in their own way. Other people may judge - they aren't the people I want to have dinner with!

Table manners are very important. Whenever I'm at a business lunch or dinner anyone who doesn't know how to hold cutlery properly or generally behave at the table stands outs, and not in a good way.

[quote Insertfunnyname]@bookworm14 he isn’t left handed. Of course left handers eat the other way. It’s knife in dominant hand.[/quote]
No, we don’t.

Ketchup is such a quintessential part of fast food formal table manners should not apply. You wouldnt expect to sit down and slice through a hotdog or burger from a street vendor. Equally you wouldn’t want to insult a chef at a fine dining restaurant by asking for ketchup. You have to respect the authenticity of certain foods and eat as it is meant to be eaten, be it with cutlery or hands, or any other means.
Knowledge of Table manners in general is vital. Your children should at least be made aware of various techniques of eating and what is appropriate. Etiquette for formal fine dining, Indian food, African food, Asian food etc differ and sometimes contradict themselves. For example formal dining napkin should be laid upon the knee, but it would be ridiculous to spread a fast food paper napkin while having a quick sandwich from a cafe.
I am not keen on policing table manners that’s takes the fun out of an otherwise enjoyable dining experience. It is also my job as a parent to introduce basic etiquette to my children.

Table manners yes. Ketchup etiquette nope.

As much as I'm a stickler for correct table manners and etiquette, I also know that there's a time and place for everything. Eating at McDonalds it's never going to warrant the same etiquette as eating at home or in company.

This thread is hilarious.

My mum used to enforce these rules on us too, it made for many miserable dinners with a tense atmosphere. I wish we had just been able to relax and enjoy our food.

My DCs are still very young but as long as we are all eating together as a family I don't think I'll care one jot where the ketchup is splodged or whose fork is in which hand. YABU.

Table manners are important (ketchup rules less so). I like my children to use cutlery properly, chew with their mouths closed, elbows off the table and to ask before they leave the table.
It's not too bad as I've done this since they were little so as teenagers it's second nature. I do think it's important and would be annoyed if my husband didn't back me up.

[quote Insertfunnyname]@bookworm14 he isn’t left handed. Of course left handers eat the other way. It’s knife in dominant hand.[/quote]
Not all of us do. I hate being left-handed and tarred with this brush. Both my parents are also left-handed and all 3 of us use our cutlery correctly.

I have never in my life cared how someone puts ketchup on their food and it's super controlling to dictate how people do.

But knives and forks should be used correctly, I hate seeing men, it's always men, shoveling food in with an overflowing fork piled high. But I don't think it matters which hand they go in. I'm left handed and I'm still uncomfortable with them because my grandma insisted I use them the right handed way. Chew with your mouth closed. And fingers are for ribs, burgers, pizza, naan bread and popadoms and chicken wings. And you should wipe your hands regularly with a napkin when using your hands.

Everyone knows the queen has one of these on the table, squirted liberally all over her food, and the queen mum used to stub her fag out in her egg.
Bloody commoners.

Ah 'not a high brow food'. Thanks op you gave me a giggle. Dc and I put ketchup on the side as that's how we like it and don't like when it starts to make the food go soggy but I'm pretty sure there's no etiquette. It's just personal taste. No he shouldn't undermine you on the cutlery etc but this one is rather too silly to agree with. Sorry!

I'm right handed but eat 'left handed'. Not sure why, but right handed dd does to, though DS, who is almost ambidextrous and as atrocious handwriting eats 'right handed'. Neither are wrong so long as they held nicely, used so the food is cut properly and stays on the plate. Funnily enough my mum apologies to me, and I to my dd if the cutlery is laid 'wrong' on the table for us.. We know which way round we use it so lay it that way. Obvs in restaurants we just swap it. I work on my kids with sitting nicely, passing food, not being messy etc and I do tell them why it matters more when we're out - having had to learn pdq about dining at 'high table' at my university college formal meals, taught me how important it is to know certain things but some of the rants on here about knife in the 'wrong' hand being ugly are just weird.