To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

@hansgrueber yes, and yes working class. She goes further though, she has bread rage. You can have bread, on a separate plate, and to be eaten separately at all times. Any sign someone might dunk bread or, God forbid, put the bread into the soup and she would make them leave.

She was once known to smack people over the knuckles with her soup spoon if they touched the soup with the the bread. This was before my time. DH is still in shock that I "let" him have dunkies and floaties as he calls them with his bread. I don't give a shit, he's forty years old and life is to short.

I don't eat soup with her.

I'm right handed but have always eaten with my cutlery back to front. Dd is six and now doing the same although I have tried to correct this. She does prefer to dip her chips as likes her sauce on the side and is very good and not talking and chewing at the same time.

In the scheme of things it's a small thing nowadays.

Plus the queen has a good sense of humour and wont mind someone putting sauce on their chips in her presence.

Manners are not a class thing!
Good manners and table etiquette are important to enable a person to socialise without embarrassment in every setting.

YABU and I say that as someone who puts the ketchup on the side. Let them eat how they want.

I have a non-obvious disability. I cut up all my food and then transfer my fork to my right hand because I don't have the control or co-ordination with my left hand to do anything other than hold a bit of food still. If I used a fork in my left hand to eat I'd miss my mouth and/or drop food on the floor. I have been at some very formal meals and used cutlery in the way that works for me. The alternative is for me not to attend at all because of etiquette snobs (and for those who would say 'I don't mean you' - you can't see my disability just by looking, so if you judge people who use their cutlery differently, you do mean me.)

@thecatsthecats

Being uber class and etiquette conscious is the absolute ultimate sign of being lower class I'm afraid OP. Desperately trying to fit in just marks you out as a wannabe.

(I didn't make the rules, but I've socialised with the proper old upper classes, and worrying about using the right fork etc is very much a marker of the lower middle/working class.)

Not true. My grandparents were as grand as you like, and they CARED. No remarks would be made, and no ‘worrying’ about it happened. They would just silently think less of someone who ‘didn’t know how to behave.’

I’m not saying this is a good thing, by the way. They were absolutely massive snobs, of course.

@thecatsthecats

Being uber class and etiquette conscious is the absolute ultimate sign of being lower class I'm afraid OP. Desperately trying to fit in just marks you out as a wannabe.

(I didn't make the rules, but I've socialised with the proper old upper classes, and worrying about using the right fork etc is very much a marker of the lower middle/working class.)

You have absolutely proved the point though. If you are taught how to handle your cutlery, condiments and glasses correctly from the beginning, it is natural and you don't need to be concerned with whoever or wherever you are eating. Sitting there faffing or worrying shows you weren't taught and that is lower class (generally). My ex-husband had a docker for a dad and a cleaner/tea lady for a mum. He did extremely well in life and his manners were lovely and very natural. For the people who are left-handed,obviously not an issue - wrong way means upside down, like a pen, in a clenched fist fgs.

Ive always held my fork in my dominant hand. All these years, people were silently looking down on me!! Well, I never...

I had no idea there was a correct way to use ketchup
Luckily, I have never encountered ketchup on a formal meal so have never made this faux pas.
Although I'm now wondering whether I am judged in the local cafe when I liberally squeeze ketchup all over my sausages!

I’m a fan of basic politeness at the table, like not gobbling your food up, eating as tidily as possible, no loud burping etc.

But, I’ve got dyspraxia and literally couldn’t use my knife and fork the ‘correct way’ for right-handed people. As a child I constantly swapped hands. My mil is appalled and makes me feel like shit about it every meal with her. Now to me, THAT’S poor table manners. It’s not inconvenient for anyone else so why is that an issue? The ketchup thing also falls into this category, how is it even rude or unpleasant for others?

Can't get excited about ketchup etiquette but I have the same issue re the DH who undermines my efforts to teach table manners. It is most irritating.

Table manners are very important to me.
Seeing someone ieating in a restaurant and holding cutlery in an unconventional way is ugly. Its offensive to many people. I notice it immediately. Knife in the left hand, holding cutlery with the hand wrapped round it and the thumb in the air! Stabbing food with the fork then putting it in the mouth without cutting it or using the knife!
I'm sorry but its downright ugly. The worst thing though is finishing a meal and not even being bothered to put the knife and fork together! Just leaving there all splayed over a dirty plate! Its bloody foul!

I agree OP, on the off chance mu DC ever find themselves in a position where it is important I would like them to feel comfortable.
They may never need to use it but at least they have the option.

I do both, pour some on the side and some on the food. Not actually ketchup but I doubt you would hold mayonnaise in much higher regard. Zero fucks given about what a superior person like you thinks.

As long as no one is eating with their mouth open/making God awful noises I couldn't give a rats if they put ketchup, mayo, salad cream etc over their food. That's just me... Maybe I'm just Savage

So this is Side of plate or all over ketchup query escalated to we got nothing better to do?

I am keen on good table manners but have never heard that dipping food in ketchup rather than pouring it on your food counts as better manners. If anything the dipping looks sloppier to me. In posh restaurants you often get a sauce or similar already poured over the food in a pattern before serving. I'd revisit your own table manners over this one, OP.

@Zerrin13 former waitress here, only you are paying that much attention to the state of plates we have to carry.
We don't believe you give a shit at the time let alone later on mumsnet.

Ssshh

It’s one thing to be put off by bad table manners, I agree it’s not nice to witness. However I don’t give it much thought past that, and I certainly don’t dwell on it. I can’t imagine how sensitive some people on this thread must be that the mere sight of someone holding a fork incorrectly reduces them to a quivering puddle of outrage.

OP, you are quite right. If you teach your children to use proper manners while they are young it will be natural to them. Then they can fit in to all situations from "dinner with the queen" to "chips on the beach". To all the people like your DH who say "ain't nobody gonna learn me how to eat my catsup" I say "fine, just don't be surprised when you don't get a promotion or your girl friend's mother tells her daughter that she can do better."
In the U.S. we don't have "chav and posh" but we do have cotillion, which is a class for 12-14 year olds that teaches manners. Table etiquette, the proper way to introduce people, the art of seating a lady, opening doors, etc. How to write a thank-you note and finally a few formal dances -- waltz, box step, etc. Some children learn this at home while others are enrolled in the classes by their parents.
And still others just stay squirting their ketchup.

@corythatwas you could always google it.

www.etiquettescholar.com/dining_etiquette/table_manners/dinner_etiquette/condiments_and_sauces/ketchup.html

@Zerrin13

Table manners are very important to me. Seeing someone ieating in a restaurant and holding cutlery in an unconventional way is ugly. Its offensive to many people. I notice it immediately. Knife in the left hand, holding cutlery with the hand wrapped round it and the thumb in the air! Stabbing food with the fork then putting it in the mouth without cutting it or using the knife! I'm sorry but its downright ugly. The worst thing though is finishing a meal and not even being bothered to put the knife and fork together! Just leaving there all splayed over a dirty plate! Its bloody foul!

To most people the PAYING of the monies is the important bit, otherwise you would be at home throwing food at each others faces (apparently) If our food is so bad you are stalking other diners who do seem to be enjoying our food then we don't want you.

Hows that for a win

PS the 'dinner table etiquette' table is NEVER the one you want. You've rated yourselves as the best, we never agreed

I eat left handed. Thankfully I dont associate myself with people who look down their noses for this.

I'm in favour of table manners. I couldn't care less about endless rules that people make up or perpetuate for no other reason than it makes them feel like they're in some elite club.

I was a restaurant manager