To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

If anyone told me I had MY cutlery in the "wrong" hands, I'd tell them to fuck off, hows that for table manners?

Yeah but you’re a rude biker.

I mistook you're "ketchup isn't high brow" comment, Lol. To be honest with you, I only put ketchup on top of chips in a nice zig zag line without overdoing it, sometimes I do put it on the side of the plate. Depends on my mood. For fish fingers, chicken nuggets, goujons, it goes on the side of the plate to dip, not for any reason except preference. Unless having a fish finger sandwich, it goes in the sandwich. Burgers or hot wraps of any kind or sausage butty, ketchup goes inside all, right? You're not supposed to dip a burger, wrap or sandwich surely?... I dip them too tbh, if I need more sauce. I stand by my chips in a cardboard cone comment, I think you're fine with that because it's not a restaurant? Anyway, don't think I'm putting too much ketchup on, because I'm not, I don't over-do it 😂 . I can't think of any other food that ketchup goes with, except a kebab which I don't eat.

At a restaurant you can be given ketchup in sachets, bottles either squeezy or glass, or in some kind of container with a spoon. If it's a glass bottle or container with a spoon it always goes on the side of the plate just because it's just natural, easier and safer - so not too much comes out of the glass bottle. If it's a squeezy bottle or sachet, no issue either way... Can't believe I'm bothering to write this...

I do care about cutlery, obviously not if someone is left handed or has a disability. Which I'm sure you agree.

My post is way too long for a post about ketchup

What bad table manners is: not saying please and thank you, talking with your mouth full, using technology and wandering off without explanation.

What bad table manners is not: putting "low brow food" on a plate in the 'wrong' way

My mum once gave me a dressing down at a family wedding because I dipped my bread into the soup. NO, she said YOU MUST TEAR IT OFF INTO LITTLE PIECES, BUTTER THE PIECES AND NEVER EVER EVER EVER DIP IT INTO YOUR SOUP. She informed me that anything less was very rude, it was very embarrassing as everyone on the table heard her telling her child off.

What made it worse was the fact that I was 27!

@justilou1

Every evening my husband stabs 53 pieces of everything onto his fork so loudly that you can hear every “Plink, Plink, Scritch, Scrape”, then stuffs the over-full load into his mouth, then yells at the kids about their table manners. Afterwards, he sucks his greedy fingers until I want to throw up. No amount of telling him that there are not two sets of rules.... Gaaaaah! Meanwhile, my DDs don’t want to sit next to him or my son who seem to amplify everything in their mouths.... I am considering divorce.

that must be very trying. presumably this was an arranged marriage, where the groom remains coyly veiled until you ceremoniously lift it at the wedding breakfast, and then look on, aghast as he wields his fork like a jousting lance ! and you have to keep smiling sweetly in front of the assembled company, while glancing daggers at the arrangers. words will be had.

@thebabessavedme

Why would anyone make a left-handed child learn to use cutlery in the right-handed way, imo thats pretty cruel.

It's really not - you get used to whatever you are taught. I use my chopsticks in my right hand as well, because I learned in a country where using your left hand to eat is spectacularly uncouth. So I chose to learn with my right hand (for selfish reasons, I already stuck out like a sore thumb as a foreigner and didn't want to give people anything else to gawp at).

Other lefthanders can do what they like (and it isn't bad table manners), but given Americans use their fork in the "wrong" hand, people can obviously learn to use either side, it's just cultural, and practice.

i find it hard to take anyone seriously who places their sauce anywhere except at the correct 11 o'clock position on the plate.

Unless having a fish finger sandwich, it goes in the sandwich.

You put ketchup on a fish finger sandwich? 😯

Table manners are important- I have a constant battle to get my DC to use their cutlery properly and to sit still at the table instead of getting up and down all the time. I don't want them to be judged by others because they haven't learned how to behave around a table. But they have good condiment etiquette and are polite which is something I suppose! My 9 year old DD I'm suspecting has some sort of ADHD or sensory thing going on and she's the hardest to get to sit down properly and not eat with her hands (I'm talking about eating a roast dinner or pasta with her hands) the 5 year old is more compliant.
YANBU

I'm right handed but find it more comfortable to eat the left-handed way. However, some years ago I taught myself to eat the 'correct' way, as I do find myself in formal settings these days and it just means I don't need to worry about whether or not I am being judged.

There have been some unpleasant comments on here about American table manners. In fact these are just cultural differences. In America it is expected that you will set your knife down after cutting your food, place your non-dominant hand in your lap and eat with your fork in the dominant hand. That is considered the polite way to eat.

Some traits of English diners' habits seem quite rude to Americans - for instance using one's knife to manoeuvre a bit of food onto the fork. So I wish some posters would stop with the anti-American snobbery.

I agree with A, B and C manners. One of the greatest things I think you can teach your child is how to adapt to different social settings. Why would you not want your child to know the 'rules' and to know when they can be broken?

Definitely have levels of manners that are acceptable. I would want my DC to be able to go to a friends house and judge the level of manners correctly if it’s a table meal or a tray meal so they can relax.
Basic manners of cutlery (either way round) mouth closed and no tech if at the table.
We have a mix of tray and table meals in the week. Best manners for meals out (unless it’s an easy pub burger type meal) and Christmas Lunch etc.
I don’t think I would like the ketchup squirted all over depending on the meal. However if it’s chippy chips it can go everywhere.

You put ketchup on a fish finger sandwich?

I fish finger sandwich is better with HP,

Cuts through the breadcrumbs.

This is a necessity!

Tbh I think the least classy thing is judging others etiquette. As long as there is please and thank yous, no chewing with mouth open etc. at home, I don't see the issue. It's their house let them have their ketchup as they want! Any restaurant that serves ketchup to you in a squeezy bottle isn't going to be somewhere imperative to observe sauce etiquette.

My DM shakes her head at me on the occasions she notices me eating with my knife in my left hand. She taught me to eat with a knife and fork, and I've eaten this way as long as I can remember...

@TheKeatingFive

You put ketchup on a fish finger sandwich?

I fish finger sandwich is better with HP,

Cuts through the breadcrumbs.

See I slather it in tartar sauce. Just as tangy

@TheKeatingFive

You put ketchup on a fish finger sandwich?

I fish finger sandwich is better with HP,

Cuts through the breadcrumbs.

HP? On a fish finger sandwich? Have you lost your mind It's got to be salad cream , it's the law 😄👍

Have you lost your mind

Nope. I have seen the blinding flash of light on the road to Damascus which has CHANGED MY LIFE.

Imagine a client dinner when they're grown up and they're licking their knives and talking with their mouths open. It's poor form and reflects badly on their manners, rightly or wrongly
This made me laugh! Dinners with clients who would care is a very small niche and will only impact a small number of people.

As said before, if my kids find themselves in such situation, they'll go on YouTube and learn the 'etiquette of the jour' in a few minutes.

They can then go home and eat as they wish. Of course eating with your mouth closed, no burping, etc...is a must. I don't call this table manners but manners in general and don't think that what OP was alluding to.

Interesting read. I just always thought for any condiment, you put it on the side of your plate UNLESS in the case of ketchup I was eating chips from a paper cone or other type of take away in the go, or in a hot dog type of situation

Table manners are important and your husband is limiting your son’s ability to mix everywhere and feel confident

We always had dinner together as a family. The D.C. were taught how to use cutlery, sit at the table until finished and asked to be excused as well as saying thank you for dinner. Just because your DH is lacking in common manners does not mean he should raise the children the same way

Teach your children good manners

Table manners are important

Agreed

your husband is limiting your son’s ability to mix everywhere and feel confident

In a general sense, yes, but this particular example doesn’t stack up. I can’t think of any situation where someone will be held back because they put sauce on food when dining somewhere that presents squeezy bottles of ketchup on the table.

You might not care what others think of you holding your knife like a pen and might mistakenly believe that no-one cares .... but [evil grin].... the ones who notice have concrete evidence of your social class. Yup, the evil system that doesn't exist any longer. Only it does.
It is of course terrible to judge people on such archaic grounds and having impeccable manners doesn't make anyone a better person, but, thus it is, will be, and forever has been.
[hides]

This made me laugh! Dinners with clients who would care is a very small niche and will only impact a small number of people.

That's just one example though. There are many more.

There are always well-meaning people on these threads who claim that no-one notices table manners. It would be nice if that were true but if you believe that these things shouldn’t matter you don’t do anyone any favours by claiming that there is no problem.

Claiming that others don’t notice table manners is like claiming that no-one notices an accent. Of course they do, and just as an accent carries information about where a person grew up or went to school, so social etiquette gives some clues about a person’s background. The information exists; the issue is what a person then does with it.

It is of course terrible to judge people on such archaic grounds and having impeccable manners doesn't make anyone a better person, but, thus it is, will be, and forever has been
and the finger should therefore be pointed on them, not the person without impeccable table manners.