To want to teach proper table manners to children?

[Insertfunnyname]

Having an argument with DH because he is refusing to accept that there is an etiquette to serving ketchup. His table manners are terrible as he was never taught them. He can’t use cutlery correctly and it’s a bit of an ongoing battle because I try to teach table manners to our sons and he undermines me and says it doesn’t matter how they use cutlery or what hand they hold the knife in etc etc as anyone who judges a lack of table manners lives in the last century.

We have 3 primary aged children and on the rare occasion they use ketchup they pour it all over their food. I said that it should be poured on the side of the plate and food dipped in it (ideally, if you’re in company or restaurant setting)

Leaving aside the issue that ketchup isn’t that high brow a food in the first place (!) it’s really important to me that they are taught table manners because rightly or wrongly society DOES judge poor manners.

He thinks I’ve invented this form of table manners that ketchup shouldn’t be squirted liberally over food and should in fact be poured in one spot at the side. Of course the main issue is he doesn’t place any value on table manners in general so this is really the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the main issue.

YANBU - there is an etiquette with using ketchup that children should learn/know about

YABU - everyone should use ketchup how they like even when dining with the queen.

@Janegrey333

I find the idea of anybody “elucidating” about ketchup, plain silly. I don’t have the stuff in the house so I’m hardly going to require a faux Lady’s help.

Neither do we. Everybody here hates it

We're a brown sauce family!

@dontdisturbmenow

It is of course terrible to judge people on such archaic grounds and having impeccable manners doesn't make anyone a better person, but, thus it is, will be, and forever has been and the finger should therefore be pointed on them, not the person without impeccable table manners.

But it’s not. We live in the real world, not an idealised fantasy. A person with poor manners will be judged on them however much we think it shouldn’t be so.

We live in the real world, not an idealised fantasy. A person with poor manners will be judged on them however much we think it shouldn’t be so
Who isn't judged in our current society? Should we confirm by every standard others judges us by?

No we shouldn't. We should identify our own principles and ensure they align with being a good person. Anyone who judges because of their own sense of superiority is the one who should change, not the person judged.

Ketchup?
How do people get from squirting ketchup to self-respect?!
You can do what you want with ketchup, IMO.
Live a little.
Full disclosure, I don't have ketchup at home.

You’re still not getting it @dontdisturbmenow. We deal with the real world where people are judged, not your utopia. People are judged on their table manners, regardless of whether they should be. Failing to equip them for that judgement is disadvantaging them. It’s not about should, it’s about reality.

I'm with @VinylDetective.

Also:

No we shouldn't. We should identify our own principles and ensure they align with being a good person. Anyone who judges because of their own sense of superiority is the one who should change, not the person judged.

This is not a case of whether people should judge or not - it's a case of people doing that IRL and those who can't 'fit in', in this case when it comes to table manners, may be left behind in their careers. Whether that is right or wrong, that's what happens in professional environments where staff is expected to network with senior peers and/or clients.

Table manners are important but there's no such thing as ketchup etiquette except it's rude to ask for ketchup when presented with a meal lovingly prepared, perfectly seasoned with appropriate sauce (eg red wine jus) yes ongoing battle with 18 year old since they discovered other households eat ketchup with proper food! On meals that are suited to ketchup eg sausage and chips then all over is just fine imho

I would not care too much about the ketchup though I would say that ketchup on the side is neater, which can be useful at times.

But OP, your dh is wrong about table manners. He's doing his kids a disservice not teaching them. There are all kinds of places they might be through their lives where they will feel out of place and embarrassed if they are the odd one out not knowing how to eat politely.

Out with the boss and co-workers at a nice restaurant for a celebration, eating at some kind of school function with your professors all around, at a charity function, meeting the parents of the person you'd like to marry for the first time? In every case it is very unpleasant to suddenly realise you are the only one who doesn't know how to handle the cutlery.

You sound fucking weary.

Ketchup etiquette 🤣

Ha. I went to finishing school (if anyone remembers them!). I wanted too. I loved it. I wanted to teach it. But it was a dying art.

I was taught how to eat soup. Also how to eat spaghetti! Oh. I loved it. My old teacher would love this!

I have never come across “ketchup etiquette” before, but yes I would put my sauce on the side if using it. Otherwise I agree with you OP, it is doing them a disservice to not teach table manners. In the future they surely don’t want to be the ones known for poor manners.

I don’t agree that left handed people hold their knife and fork in opposite hands though. I have not come across this with the left handed people I know anyway, which include my mother, sister and husband.

i can't imagine wanting to be in company with and have much to do with, people who make a connection between how or if a knife is held while eating, and moral worth of a person.
it sounds rather ignorant to me, as if those people have never seen or moved among different people who do different things.
if it is someone who has led a restricted sheltered life, then i can make allowances for them, but if it is wilful, with an arrogant and erroneous attitude of being the only correct way, then i have little time for them.
i might have been more willing to conform to these customs when i was younger, but now they just seem silly.
how can anyone seriously say americans have bad table manners. isn't that like saying indian food is too spicy, or french/italian food is not correct because it has garlic.
it sounds so narrow minded and self-regarding.
manners are obvious and easy to learn. they are nothing to do with holding cutlery.
as for one's social class being deduced from all this, well, i rest my case. that's the point. why should i try to disguise my social class. if that makes me unworthy of hire, so be it. their loss. i wouldn't want to work with people who have such ridiculous ideas. give me an honest american RH fork-holder.

I don't care op, but I do wish people would stop their children licking their fingers.
I find it absolutely repulsive.

Hope it's reduced salt/ sugar ketchup op.

Mine only eat hummus, avocado and olives.

@dontdisturbmenow

It is of course terrible to judge people on such archaic grounds and having impeccable manners doesn't make anyone a better person, but, thus it is, will be, and forever has been and the finger should therefore be pointed on them, not the person without impeccable table manners.

But, you know, it won't be and that is the same the world over.

Whereever you are in the world, if you don't follow what is good table manners in that country, you will be judged.

You may be a "good person" (so twee) as you say but you can be a good person and still have good table manners.

It is a little bit rebellious fourth former to look on things such a table manners as shallow and that all those who lack them must be far too high minded, too noble, too true, too real, to think about them.

Tis, alas, bollocks!

@GlummyMcGlummerson

What bad table manners is: not saying please and thank you, talking with your mouth full, using technology and wandering off without explanation.

What bad table manners is not: putting "low brow food" on a plate in the 'wrong' way

My mum once gave me a dressing down at a family wedding because I dipped my bread into the soup. NO, she said YOU MUST TEAR IT OFF INTO LITTLE PIECES, BUTTER THE PIECES AND NEVER EVER EVER EVER DIP IT INTO YOUR SOUP. She informed me that anything less was very rude, it was very embarrassing as everyone on the table heard her telling her child off.

What made it worse was the fact that I was 27!

So sorry OP, your mother was clearly uncouth, and embarrassed herself to an extent that is actually hard to imagine in such a setting. Believe me no one nearby was cringing for you🙄 🙄