To think cheating with contraception is more common than I used to believe

[Thewithesarehere]

I am now beginning to think it’s more common. Recent threads haven’t helped this suspicion either. I wonder why anyone would do it and in what state of mind. It’s a lifetime commitment as it should be and stopping contraception without telling your partner should really be criminal. How is it consensual sex after all? Looking to hear your thoughts and share your stories of the CF women/men you know who have tried this.

@choli

I'd be willing to bet that most of the 'why won't he marry me we have 1/2/3 children' posters have similar accidental pregnancy stories.

I don't think thats fair at all. The problem is with this line of thinking is it starts to demonise women with disinterested partners, single mothers, unmarried mothers as its easy to say "bet she tricked him into it anyway". It is also really easy for men to excuse their shitty behaviour with "she tricked me into getting pregnant" (when in fact they were the ones who pushed for the baby). Im not saying it doesnt happen or that it isnt terrible but to assume most of the women lumbered with children and commitment phobic men engineered it, is wrong.

But the male victim of stealthing can walk away life unchanged. A female victim can't. So IMO one is more serious than the other.

That's not technically true. A female victim could walk away. She could abort the baby, put it out for adoption, or just actually walk away from the baby and leave it with the father. I have known women who have left their kids with their dad rather than look after them. They have done this willingly (it wasn't to do with stealthing), so it's not technically true what you say. There are options, it's just they aren't great ones.

Plus if a man walked away from his child, even if he had been tricked into having one, people would berate him for that and say he's a shit, even when it's not his fault.

I'm shocked by the amount of PP who don't seem to realise that non-consensual condom removal (stealing) is rape.

A woman gives 'conditional consent' (I will have sex with you on the condition that you wear a condom).

Once the man secretly removes that condom, the consent is removed. Therefore the sex is non-consensual = rape!

Men have been convicted of rape for 'stealthing'!

*That's not technically true. A female victim could walk away. She could abort the baby, put it out for adoption, or just actually walk away from the baby and leave it with the father. I have known women who have left their kids with their dad rather than look after them. They have done this willingly (it wasn't to do with stealthing), so it's not technically true what you say. There are options, it's just they aren't great ones.

Plus if a man walked away from his child, even if he had been tricked into having one, people would berate him for that and say he's a shit, even when it's not his fault*
This exactly. I think men have it much worse.

The reason why removal of condom is rape is related to TSI. It has nothing to do with pregnancy. If a man has sex with a woman without a condom on the belief that she is on the pull, unless they've been physically checked, he is accepting the risk of an std.

The woman agreeing to sex with a condom is expected to be protected against STD.

@RollneckJumper

I don't think people are disagreeing with that to be fair, unless I missed that.

The question is more is it rape the other way around? As in a man has agreed to have sex with a woman without a condom because she has said she is on the pill/has the implant/has a coil, whatever. And then it turns out she was lying, she wasn't on any contraception. He was lied to and was told that no condom was necessary. Is that also rape? That's the question.

It's a very shady area isn't it? You could say the man could put a condom on anyway. But the woman could also sort out her own contraception if you're going down that route. Either way, it's shitty behaviour from anyone who does it and they just prove themselves to be untrustworthy and nasty.

The question is more is it rape the other way around?

If anything it would be a sexual assault, because woman cannot rape man considering the legal definition of rape.

But yeah. I get what you mean and I agree it's very complicated area. Interesting debate though

They may put the baby up for adoption or get an abortion, but those are medical procedures they have to undergo. They are not walking away unscathed.

Not unscathed but with control and options to move away. Men don't.

They may put the baby up for adoption or get an abortion, but those are medical procedures they have to undergo. They are not walking away unscathed.

No they definitely aren't unscathed. The psychological implications are bad enough for some people, let alone the physical.

But the man cannot walk away at all. He is forced into fatherhood and cannot stop it other than walking away, and a decent man would hate to do that. If he was lied to about contraception and forced into being a father, is that any fairer than a man forcing a woman into being a mother and lying about contraception? I don't see either as worse than the other, they are both shit situations and neither should be allowed to happen. But controlling that is impossible so it will keep happening.

Sorry to say this but taking a tablet every single day of your life religiously is a fucking PITA and a bloody nightmare if you have highly stressful career and are working all the hours under the sun.

Plenty of people are on lifelong medication. I have had to take a pill (two in fact) every day of my life for the last 20 years and will do for the rest of my life, for a thyroid condition. I have to take it at least at least half an hour before I have breakfast or it won’t absorb properly. I don’t find it a big deal at all.

But the man physically doesn't have to bear a child. It is radically different.

@CounsellorTroi

Sorry to say this but taking a tablet every single day of your life religiously is a fucking PITA and a bloody nightmare if you have highly stressful career and are working all the hours under the sun.

Plenty of people are on lifelong medication. I have had to take a pill (two in fact) every day of my life for the last 20 years and will do for the rest of my life, for a thyroid condition. I have to take it at least at least half an hour before I have breakfast or it won’t absorb properly. I don’t find it a big deal at all.

This actually leads to an interesting question.

Would the women who have issues taking pill (and won't sort alternative) and keep forgetting because it's PITA have the same attitude towards a medicine for a medical condition? It's the same thing. You have to swallow a pill regularly.

[quote CakeRequired]@RollneckJumper

I don't think people are disagreeing with that to be fair, unless I missed that.

The question is more is it rape the other way around? As in a man has agreed to have sex with a woman without a condom because she has said she is on the pill/has the implant/has a coil, whatever. And then it turns out she was lying, she wasn't on any contraception. He was lied to and was told that no condom was necessary. Is that also rape? That's the question.

It's a very shady area isn't it? You could say the man could put a condom on anyway. But the woman could also sort out her own contraception if you're going down that route. Either way, it's shitty behaviour from anyone who does it and they just prove themselves to be untrustworthy and nasty.[/quote]
I don't think anyone has disagreed with the point, but a few PP don't seem to have made the connection between stealthing and rape.

The other way around.. a woman lying about being on contraception and having sex with a man that trusts her word.. it's wrong, but it can't be rape. You need a penis to commit rape, so women cannot commit rape. At most, if it was criminalised, it would be sexual assault.
I can imagine it would be extremely difficult to prove though, and imagine the amount of women who may be dragged through the court system due to the man suspecting foul play when there has been a genuine contraception failure. Saying that, some men are incorrectly accused of rape and they are dragged through the court system too.

I once knew a woman who had been in a relationship for 5 years. No pregnancies and no children. Her DP left her, but a short while later they started having "no strings" sex ....and she had a "contraception failure" (wink) and ended up pregnant. She admitted this at the time, but kept it secret from him.
They actually stayed together and went on to get married and have another child. I haven't spoken to her in years, so now idea how they all are now.

Personally, I have previously been in an emotionally abusive relationship. He desperately wanted a child (specifically a daughter), but I did not want to get pregnant by him (he already had a son from a previous relationship who he had nothing to do with). At the time, I was not strong enough to leave the relationship, but I had to make sure I did not get pregnant by him . So I secretly took the contraceptive pill and sometimes the morning after pill. Thankfully, I never got pregnant and eventually I was able to gather myself and leave him.

But the man physically doesn't have to bear a child. It is radically different.

No they don't, but as I say if they are a decent person, they still have to take care of the child, pay for it etc. Children, as much as people love them, turn your world upside down. You're no longer able to be selfish and do what you want or spend your money how you want, especially if you are poor. Everything goes to the child. It's physically, emotionally and financially draining. So he does still lose in that situation because he didn't want one, he's essentially lost his previous life for the next 20+ years and he'll never get that back.

Sorry to say this but taking a tablet every single day of your life religiously is a fucking PITA and a bloody nightmare if you have highly stressful career and are working all the hours under the sun
Is this a joke? I take a tablet every day of my life and have done so for 22 years. I've never thought if it as a nightmare! No different to turning the kettle on every morning.

But the man physically doesn't have to bear a child. It is radically different
Neither does the woman who doesn't want to. And even if she does, because she happens to be radically against abortion and this belief is stronger than her desperation for not having a child, it's 9 months Vs a lifetime.

The woman has if course the option of the morning after pill. It's much harder for man to keep having sex taking the condom off without the woman realising time after time than it is for a woman to continue to pretend she takes the pill every day before her OH catch her up on the lie if ever.

I knew a couple, he already had a couple of kids by different mothers and wasn't the most dutiful parent. She got pregnant and he was less than pleased.
I later found out that she had stopped having the contraceptive injection without telling him. I know he could have used condoms if he was so concerned, lots of men won't use condoms.

@CakeRequired

But the man physically doesn't have to bear a child. It is radically different.

No they don't, but as I say if they are a decent person, they still have to take care of the child, pay for it etc. Children, as much as people love them, turn your world upside down. You're no longer able to be selfish and do what you want or spend your money how you want, especially if you are poor. Everything goes to the child. It's physically, emotionally and financially draining. So he does still lose in that situation because he didn't want one, he's essentially lost his previous life for the next 20+ years and he'll never get that back.

Yes this. A man cannot walk away from fatherhood without being harshly judged by society. Even if he did his financial duty he would still be considered a shit if he did not actually wish to parent the child. Whereas it’s generally accepted - rightly - that women should not be forced to be mothers.

Men walk away from their kids all the time, some without even fucking the paltry CMS at them. Society never seems to care that much

I think many commenters are deliberately miscontruing here.

If partner doesn't want to use condoms and doesn't want a baby and you don't want to use the pill etc and tell him that - fine.

I agree with OP that if they don't tell their partner, how is the sex after consensual to the degree that the partner expects they are reasonably protected from pregnancy and the resulting potential moral, physical and monetary commitments of raising a child.

Men walk away from their kids all the time, some without even fucking the paltry CMS at them. Society never seems to care that much

Oh I do. I know one such twat with 4 kids who pays for none and looks after none. He thought he was dad of the year for looking after his 13 year old for her mum as she was struggling. I said you're no father until you've done 13 years to bloody catch up. He didn't even manage 13 weeks. He's a disgrace, and he can't blame anyone but himself.

He's not a friend trust me. He's my partners friend, but I refuse to have him round to our house.

There are loads that walk away though, you're right. The system there is shoddy at best.

Men should use condoms or abstain then.

Both men and women should abstain if they don’t want a pregnancy but don’t want to take responsibility for contraception either.

Purposely stopping contraception, deceiving your partner and becoming pregnant is a monumentally shitty thing to do.

I don’t think it should be illegal though on the basis that men can always choose to wear a condom and if they agree not to there is an element of risk in that they’re trusting their partner to take contraception. It’s the same with STD’s it’s shitty to have sex with someone if you have one but should it be illegal? Not really, the other person knows they are taking a calculated risk without a condom.

I also think women who do this tend to get their just deserts in the long run. Having a child is incredibly tough when it something you do want and have chosen together. I don’t have the actual figures on men who stick around or are forthcoming about support when they feel they’ve been lies to/duped but I’ve never known, read or heard about a case that’s ended well for the woman.

@RollneckJumper "and imagine the amount of women who may be dragged through the court system due to the man suspecting foul play when there has been a genuine contraception failure. " Not only where there was a genuine contraception failiure, but also where a couple have agreed to try for a baby or even just do without contraception and "see what happens" and then the man changes his mind. I was in a similar relationship to yours where my partner would either remove his condom or it would "break". When I got pregnant (I could have been more diligent about the MAP but equally I should have left him) we were still in a relationship and while sometimes he was happy about having a child, he would also hold the fact I "got myself pregnant" over my head and insinuate I had tricked him somehow. I just think that this would be another tool for abusive men to use against/threaten their partners with.

The wierd thing is after our son was born (and I was planning to escape) I got the coil fitted. When he found out he was suprised and dissapointec "I thought you would just happen to have another child eventually". Note, we werent trying for another child, he didnt want to explicitly say he was trying, but if I got pregnant unplanned he would have the benefits (me more trapped, another child) and a get out clause for acting like a twat "I never wanted a child in the first place". I think that laid back, not directly talking about having kids but being lax about contraception is common in men and women, but if you allow men to accuse in court women of tricking them when they do get pregnant you undermine a lot of progress.