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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to feel "feminist guilt" for being traditionally feminine?

215 replies

feministfemme · 05/10/2020 21:43

I've NCed as this might be a bit of a sensitive subject, I'm not sure. (could be moved to Feminism board I suppose, but AIBU gets more traction).

I was just wondering if anyone else feels feminist guilt for being traditionally feminine - for example I wear makeup, I have long(ish) hair, I like to bake, my family are my priority, I'd like to be a SAHM etc etc .

Though obviously feminism is about giving women a choice, can't help but feeling like I've picked the wrong ones sometimes! Blush

OP posts:
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 18:26

RosyPickle

I fully agree with you, and I think it's disappointing that work can so easily be undervalued just due to the gender of the worker. My sister is a doctor and even though the gender gap within the career is evening out, she still felt a sense of being on the outskirts and pressured to show more competence than men just to prove she could (particularly when in Uni, I think). Which is a shame because she's a nurturing person, and a good doctor - as far as I know anyway Grin

OP posts:
TyroBurningDownTheCloset · 06/10/2020 18:29

No women have a real choice about our sexed identity. The world observes us to be female and treats us accordingly regardless of our thoughts on the matter.

No, disabled women aren't a better comparator, because disabled women are female. Any other subset of women you use as a comparator will run into the same problem - you're saying this particular subset of females are included in feminism, so this particular subset of males ought to be too. It's just particularly offensive in the case of black women as they've a long history of being characterised as mannish and inadequate.

A point to consider, on the topic of social acceptability: the mainstream is inherently patriarchal. The hierarchy of male dominance and female submission is socially acceptable; for feminist ideas to be accepted and championed by the mainstream they must first be sanitised, defanged, and twisted to reinforce that hierarchy. Genderism is no different; it prioritises the needs, experiences and desires of male women over female women every time.

feministfemme · 06/10/2020 18:34

TyroBurningDownTheCloset
These "males" identify as women, and I am inclined to refer to and respect them as such.

I think I might take a break from this thread. I can appreciate how concise and intelligent the people who have contributed to this thread are, but I'm a bit shattered. I doubt I will change my opinion in relation to transgender people, and I doubt anyone responding will change theirs either. I'm also a bit flabbergasted about getting troll hunted as well, but that's neither here-nor-there. Thanks for your contributions everyone, have a great evening.

OP posts:
ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes · 06/10/2020 18:39

OP it just seems unusual that someone your age is so eloquent and informed, I was a clueless fool at 17. Fwiw I believe you’re completely genuine and just very intelligent

feministfemme · 06/10/2020 18:41

ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes

Thank you, I appreciate that. I can't see why anyone would want to pose as a 17 year old girl to discuss feminism on Mumsnet, but maybe that is my actual naivety poking through. Have a good evening. x

OP posts:
ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes · 06/10/2020 18:43

Oh I bet someone would! Grin

SuzieQQQ · 06/10/2020 19:04

Why are you equating being feminine with baking, enjoying family and being the stay at home parent? That doesn’t even make sense.

SecretSpAD · 06/10/2020 19:04

I think there's probably as many different views of feminism as there are women. It's certainly moved on from bra-less and dungarees - if indeed it ever was....I have to be honest I don't know, so please do let me know if I'm wrong, but that was only ever a stereotype.

For me feminism is very much focussed on having equal chances in the workplace. That's what is important to me - to have equal opportunity to promotions and pay. I also want men to treat me with professional respect - at conferences I want to be introduced as Dr xxxx and not Juliette. It means I don't want to be patronised, talked down to, or for window salesmen for example to speak to my husband only when I'm right there and asking the questions.
I want to walk down the street and be unmolested and to not be worried about taking my dog out after dark.
I wanted to be safe from DV in a previous relationship and for the police to have taken me seriously when, after 5 years of escalating mental, physical and financial abuse, I finally summoned enough courage to report him.

What I will not do, however, is blindly agree with a woman just because we share the same sex.
I'll champion the sisterhood -but not when I think it is doing something wrong.

As the adopted mother of a teenage daughter I want her to feel safe, respected and treated as an equal to men. Like me she has no interest in pregnancy/babies/children and, like me, she feels that often feminism and the women's equality party in particular - only seem to focus on reproduction/childcare and ignore the women like us who are not interested. More than anything that has made me - ams is making her- feel that we are left out of feminism these days.

LangClegsInSpace · 06/10/2020 19:32

I'd like to leave you with two more short things to read.

The first is a piece by Rebecca Reilly-Cooper. Her blog appears to be protected at the moment (hope she's OK) but it's available on the wayback machine. That seems to be loading very slowly at the moment so I'll paste the text below.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20191208083417/rebeccarc.com/2018/01/14/some-basic-questions-about-sex-and-gender-for-progressives/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20191208083417/rebeccarc.com/2018/01/14/some-basic-questions-about-sex-and-gender-for-progressives/

Some basic questions about sex and gender for progressives

1. Do you believe that being born with the kind of body that has the potential to gestate children – a body with a uterus, ovaries, and a vagina – is of any political significance? Does having that kind of body have any bearing on a person’s likely opportunities and outcomes?

2. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies have historically been subject to any distinct forms of injustice, oppression, exploitation or discrimination? Have they historically been subordinated to the people with penises and testes?

3. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies continue to be subject to any distinct forms of injustice, oppression, exploitation or discrimination?

4. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies often suffer physical and sexual violence, abuse and harassment perpetrated by the people with penises and testes?

5. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies ought to have a label with which to define themselves? Does our language need a word to refer to the people with uteruses and ovaries?

6. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies have a right to organise politically around their shared experiences, and to campaign and work for policies to secure their own interests?

7. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies have a right to associate freely with other people with those kinds of bodies, and to have some separate spaces for their safety, privacy and dignity? Do people with those kinds of bodies have a right to some spaces where people with penises and testes are not permitted to enter?

8. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies sometimes have a right to policies and resources designated towards rectifying their historical and continued marginalisation and oppression?

If your answer to any of these questions is “yes”, you should reject the ideology of gender identity, and policy proposals based on that ideology such as the self-declaration of legal gender.

SecretSpAD · 06/10/2020 19:35

I guess the issue with that is that fundamentally I can't understand what it feels like to be an older feminist woman who has grown up in a different social climate with different expectations than me. I can empathise and listen closely, but realistically I don't know what it's like.

One day you will be that older feminist and thinking the same about your daughters' (if you have one) idea of feminism.

It has changed and it has had to because society has changed, even though the gender pay gap is a pervading theme throughout the decades.

I don't know what it's like to be a 14 year old girl in 2020 (like my daughter is). The pressures and the opportunities that she has now are different to mine in 1984.

SecretSpAD · 06/10/2020 19:38

What I do know though @feministfemme is that in my late teens I wish I had been as articulate, interesting and capable of intelligent debate as you are.

LangClegsInSpace · 06/10/2020 19:38

The second thing is also copied below, it's a statement by Deptford People's Project from 2018. They felt they had to justify attending a meeting on women's rights in the House of Commons, which is a very sorry state of affairs. The original text, posted on Twitter, is no longer available.

If you're doing humanities at uni, and especially if you're considering doing gender studies, then please read this:

Statement from Working class community workers from Deptford. We are attending the women’s meeting at the House of Commons today. We would like to offer an explanation as to why this is necessary. See below

After many years of working at grass roots within our community we have recently been made aware of an issue that directly effects the working class and women in our area.

You must understand we are not graduate activists or or women’s rights campaigners. We are community workers and our concerns regarding changes to the GRA come from a lifetime of personal experience and having worked with some of the most marginalise people in our area.

The majority of our recent projects have been working with rough sleepers, the homeless and those that have been excluded from society. The issues they face include: unsupported/ mental health illness, sexual violence and prostitution, childhood trauma and abuse...

domestic violence, poverty, ex care system issues, addiction, prison,rehab,homelessness and austerity.

The people in our community that we represent are the most likely to access/ be placed in sex segregated services.Some have and will access all of these services.

Our local political and community organisations have been infiltrated by a group of well meaning white middle class goldsmith (uni) students. These people although well intentioned have rail roaded many vital projects by introducing identity policies and intersectional thinking. They do this without truly understanding or experiencing working class issues.

Meetings we have attended for the purpose of discussing community housing projects and women’s wellness etc have been used as a platform to re educate working class people on the new academic language expected within our organisations.

As anyone from a working class back ground will tell you, these theories and ideologies rarely translate into working class communities.

The extremely small number of transsexual (I use the old term as this has a very different meaning to the university umbrella term currently thrown about) members of the community are and have always been excepted and protected by community organisations.

We are now informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

No one will discuss our concerns regarding self id. Our local Labour Party has refused to comment or debate with the working class people.

We are attending the meeting this evening as this is only place that is willing to discuss theses issues.

When we are being verbally abused and called fascists because we are concerned about the effects of policy change on marginalised people it is a direct attack on working class women and grass roots organisations.

when sharing information about this event and attempt to shut it down be aware that you are complicit in the silencing of not only women but working class people who have not afforded the privileged of a safe space or university education. Thank you x

feministfemme · 06/10/2020 23:11

@SuzieQQQ I said traditionally feminine. There are some stereotypes that come along with being traditionally feminine, those are a few that I could think of.

Thank you to everyone who provided some sources to read, I appreciate it

OP posts:
LangClegsInSpace · 06/10/2020 23:44

That 2008 Stryker quote never fails to shock me, it's so incredibly racist.

GlottalStrop · 07/10/2020 09:11

Feminism = choice.

All we can hope for is that it is informed choice.

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