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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to feel "feminist guilt" for being traditionally feminine?

215 replies

feministfemme · 05/10/2020 21:43

I've NCed as this might be a bit of a sensitive subject, I'm not sure. (could be moved to Feminism board I suppose, but AIBU gets more traction).

I was just wondering if anyone else feels feminist guilt for being traditionally feminine - for example I wear makeup, I have long(ish) hair, I like to bake, my family are my priority, I'd like to be a SAHM etc etc .

Though obviously feminism is about giving women a choice, can't help but feeling like I've picked the wrong ones sometimes! Blush

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Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 00:58

You're talking about biological sex, and I am talking about cultural and social gender. There is a difference.

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Howlooseisyourgoose · 06/10/2020 01:02

I mean I personally think SAHPs should be paid on some level, as it is a full-time gig and often there are not a lot of alternatives for women (e.g. price of childcare). I definitely agree with all that you've said, sorry if I gave off the impression that SAHMs aren't / shouldn't be linked to feminism (as they are and should).

I think the contribution of SAHPs is immense and I’m possibly not helping the cause, but I really don’t want my taxes to pay for SAHPs unless they really need the help (e,g. In the form of universal credit).

FishTaco101 · 06/10/2020 01:03

Feminism is about having that option to be or do what you wish. Masculine, feminine, whatever. Shake the guilt, it is unessisary.

NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 01:06

Sorry only skimmed.

Lots of people have different ideas but this is how I feel.

Feminism is about class analysis and the situation of women all over the world and through history. It's about working to be free of the oppressions whether large or small that brings.

It's not about 1 woman wearing makeup or shaving or whatever. Although those actions by women in general can be thought about through a feminist lens, for me it's not about individuals.

It's about changing the structural inequalities that lead to a whole bunch of stuff that comes from the same place.

The list of shit that women and girls are exposed to all around the world to a greater/ lesser or more obvious/ subtle extent is LONG.

it's not about individuals. It's about all of us.

MadeleineMaxwell · 06/10/2020 01:15

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people too. Start there, see where it takes you.

Read e.g. Invisible Women by Caroline Criado-Perez, find out how your entire world is designed for the average man and see how you feel after that.

Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 01:20

Very many book recommendations! I'm going to see what is accessible at my college library and then buy some secondhand books if necessary. Thank you for your book suggestion: @MadeleineMaxwell

@NiceGerbil I can understand why feminism is about the larger scale cultural impact, but similarly I think it's easy to think that "society" is a big separate thing that controls everything, as opposed to lots of people working together to form an opinion (though I suppose this depends on both macro and micro-sociology). For me anyway, the concept of it being global and not inter-personal makes it harder to connect with and therefore more challenging to support - though I acknowledge that may just be my own singular opinion.

@FishTaco101 Working on shaking the guilt! Just takes time and self esteem!

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NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 01:21

Oh I shouldn't have skimmed! Just read the last few posts.

Sorry OP. I'm interested in sex based oppression in all it's global, multifaceted glory.

I believe (know!) that our reproductive capacity plus generally smaller size is at the root of our problems. And has been globally for ?millennia.

I don't think that internal gender ID was why.. where to start? Even in recentish times. The cultural Revolution in Iran and how women were at the forefront then got screwed. Afghanistan under the taleban. Roll back on abortion rights in many countries. Rotherham etc here. Going back in time a little. The comfort women. The rape of Berlin.

And everywhere and back and back and forward, now. Feminists need to fight. This is what I fight for. The big things and the little things as well that position us as second class.

I see however you see this differently. Woman/ girl is an identity. That's it. Nothing to do with sex.

So none of that ^^ is relevant really is it.

Let's talk about shaving legs Smile

NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 01:23

X posts

The plight of women globally makes it less easy for you to connect with feminism?

Ok that's cool.

Like I say. Shaving legs. Yes or no? Tricky one.

Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 01:26

@NiceGerbil I can understand and respect that you and I have a different opinion in relation to gender, which may affect the way we perceive and are involved in feminism. Biological women experience oppression, as do transgender women in my opinion and so I will do what I can to support both marginalised groups. I think it's important to have these conversations, and I think it's also an interesting conversation to have surrounding the topic of "shaving legs" / general traditional femininity.

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Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 01:27

@nicegerbil

It doesn't make it harder to connect with in the sense of empathising or wanting to help women, but it can make it harder in the sense of; "What can I do about this practically, how can I help on a day to day basis?" That's the point I was trying to make.

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NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 01:27

Ok sorry reading slowly

'You're talking about biological sex, and I am talking about cultural and social gender. There is a difference.'

'I can understand why feminism is about the larger scale cultural impact, but similarly I think it's easy to think that "society" is a big separate thing that controls everything, as opposed to lots of people working together to form an opinion (though I suppose this depends on both macro and micro-sociology). For me anyway, the concept of it being global and not inter-personal makes it harder to connect with and therefore more challenging to support - though I acknowledge that may just be my own singular opinion.'

You feel'feminist guilt' about personal choices.

Can you expand on your personal feminism? Because I'm not familiar with it and it would help the conversation if you lay out your stall, as it were.

NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 01:31

More X posts:/

On a practical level, which issues that effect women and girls do you feel strongly about?

I donate to charities that I think (hope!) are more grassroots and genuine. The scandals with some mainstream charities actions overseas in the last few years was really upsetting.

What are the key issues you care about? In what parts of the world? I have a reasonable-ish knowledge and know who to ask if it's not something I know about.

I can help :)

Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 01:32

@nicegerbil

I don't think I've come up with a set-in-stone belief system that I can plot out to a T. I believe women should be treated equitably to men - the issue of transgender rights for me is a similar principle. I'm ultimately still trying to understand my own belief system - there are some things I feel very strongly about and some things I need more information on in order to form an opinion. That's the genuine truth. I'm still trying to get more educated on the topic as a whole.

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Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 01:35

Some issues that I feel strongly about are in relation to sexual harassment and rape, domestic violence, child marriage, female circumcision, sexual slavery etc. There are probably more, but these are the ones that actively spring to mind when reading your question. Though I think these are all general topics that most people tend to feel strongly about, to be fair.

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NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 01:51

People feel strongly about them when they look on the BBC website and say oh that's bad, and then move on.

I find it unhelpful how in the UK (and likely lots of other places) things that should be urgent societal issues are framed as 'women's issues' and IME (which I can tell you about if you wish, minor but telling examples) make the male half of the population simply do a 'not my problem' automatic switch off.

I agree it's hard to take in the depth of harm.

I also think there's nothing wrong with focusing on one thing. We can't all do everything.

In our family about 5 years ago I said ok we each pick a charity and do a regular contribution. Not loads. But the kids picked and DH.

Tbh I don't trust a lot of the mainstream charities any more. They seem v corporatised.

But still. It can be done. I have no other way of changing our helping apart from talking on here. TBH.

Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 01:57

I guess I feel a bit limited as I'm not on a high income and I'm forever concerned about funnelling money into a charity that I may find out is acting immorally or illegally later down the line (I guess I don't know if good intent makes it okay to unknowingly support those charities). I'm going to have a look though, and see if I can possibly donate something or do a bit of volunteering.

I'm still not sure if I fully identify as a feminist as of yet, but as PP have mentioned some of that is probably due to being young and having impulses for labels. I think it's a diverse group of beliefs with a lot of niches that culminate in a common goal, based on some of my reading on here and other sites. I suppose I just need to find the niches I agree with and those that I don't

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NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 01:58

If you are interested start a thread in feminism chat, about grass roots charities that have a focus on the things you are concerned about.

It's tricky I know.

With the kids were ended up with

Plan sponsor a girl (big charity but not heard anything awful yet)
Water aid (helps everyone but women with kids are less mobile etc and do the clothes washing, cooking etc)
Citizens advice bureau (UK) and very important
Local hospice

Cancelled save the children. And something else..

It's a huge thing.

For me I watch the news and see the stuff through a feminist lens. Won't list it. So much harm.

Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 02:03

I'll probably start some more threads - I'm a little wary of moving into the Feminism section though honestly. I know that my views may not necessarily be common, and it's a very emotive / potentially divisive topic for a lot of people.

I've written that list down though, and will have a think about what I can do next. I may do something related to gender studies as part of my degree potentially as an extra thing (looking into psychology or sociology anyway so I suppose it's not much of a leap). Always keen to keep learning. Thank you for the suggestions though, I appreciate your effort.

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NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 02:05

You don't need to identify as this or that.

You don't need to give money if you can't afford it obviously!

The most basic principle of feminism, for me. Is looking at the news and the world through a lens that, even fucking considers, the female experience.

And rather than saying oh well and scrolling, saying hold on. That's shit.

And caring.

It's as basic as that. Just caring.

And then from that. Maybe talking about a report with children, family. Maybe being a keyboard warrior Smile maybe donating to charity. Maybe writing to mp about something you think is wrong...

It's not all about the big things. Caring about women and girls, around the world. The shit that goes on. Is a radical thing to do in and of itself. Because sadly. Very few people do, not really. Not because they're horrible. But because we're just a bit less important.

Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 02:07

I hear your points. Thank you for being polite and helpful, even if our views differ on some topics. I've learned some more from this thread which I'm always grateful for, even if it can sometimes come from a mixed bag of responses. x

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NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 02:10

If you do decide to start a thread in feminism about how to support women and girls in the situations you feel about.. and you've mentioned it would be volunteering in UK if anything.

I don't think you need to mention degrees? Just say I'm in the UK and want to help xyz, maybe volunteering. Anyone know anything in the NW (or whatever).

Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 02:14

I wouldn't mention degrees - I usually don't mention much academic information unless it's important info to the conversation, or I'm talking about things I'd like to study in the future. So in that context I'd probably only bring it up if asked. Thanks for the tips though! I probably won't post anything at the mo as it's unlikely to get any kind of responses at 2:10AM but might post some threads on my regular account sometime soon. x

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NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 02:16

It's AOK feminist!

The fighty stuff I find difficult.

I'm heading for 50 and have been a feminist before I knew the word! I noticed how I was treated. Which wasn't overtly sexist. But. I noticed.

I believe that women and girls globally are and have been oppressed for as long as history can remember due to our sex. I say I believe it. Newspeak. Not good. We have been oppressed etc

I'm all for people not being discriminated against due to who they are. I have zero interest in gender role. Everyone is an individual.

But when the word woman/ girl becomes verboten when talking about our issues due to our sex. When male rapists are put in women's prisons. When women marching about basic reproductive rights are called 'gynocentric'.

That's a hard no from me. I know that's not the right answer. But it's my answer.

NiceGerbil · 06/10/2020 02:17

It's been nice chatting to you as well :)

X

Original poster
feministfemme · 06/10/2020 02:19

I won't agree or disagree with your points - you know my views on transgender people, so we don't need to rehash anything. I can see where you're coming from and I do think we need to support cisgender women, I just have a different view on the transgender bit is all.

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