AIBU to feel "feminist guilt" for being traditionally feminine?

[feministfemme]

I've NCed as this might be a bit of a sensitive subject, I'm not sure. (could be moved to Feminism board I suppose, but AIBU gets more traction).

I was just wondering if anyone else feels feminist guilt for being traditionally feminine - for example I wear makeup, I have long(ish) hair, I like to bake, my family are my priority, I'd like to be a SAHM etc etc .

Though obviously feminism is about giving women a choice, can't help but feeling like I've picked the wrong ones sometimes!

@Coatandhat

I'm puzzled as to why you didn't start your thread about becoming informed about feminism on the Feminism board OP. I'm sure you would be up to the discussions on there - you seem to be pretty au fait with some of the issues. However, please don't refer to cisgender women though, we are not a subset of women and nor do we have penises.

I’m inclined to agree, especially for a first thread by OP.

Protect yourself, protect your family, and don't ride on someone else' financial coattails. Be an ADULT.

You’re no feminist @ClaryFairchild. That’s such a demeaning way to speak to a woman.

Ha! Didn’t RTFT. wouldn’t have got involved in a discussion where the OP reveals she thinks TWAW (they’re not) and calls women “cis”.

@Howlooseisyourgoose

I've had a look through the Feminism board - some of it I majorly agree with and some of it I majorly don't. I guess I posted here because from what I've seen, more people are likely to click on it and get a discourse going (and because I wanted to work on vocalising my more "controversial" opinions in what felt like a slightly safer topic). Maybe that was the wrong thing to do, I'm not sure.

@DimityandDeNimes Thank you for your opinion.

My opinion is that the term "woman" is an umbrella term to support both biological women and transgender women. I use "ciswomen" in arguments relating to transgender issues to avoid confusion. However if this is a point of conflict then I could use the term "biological woman" if that's preferable.
I don't particularly care what you say because as the thread has developed you seem to be a lot more clued up than your initial claims of naïvety suggested.

@LolaSmiles
I'm not really sure how to respond to that. I would consider myself to have intermediate knowledge in feminism, and a probably beginner level of knowledge within transgender issues. I just have some core beliefs that shape some of this knowledge into topics of debate. I wouldn't say I'm exceptionally well-versed in either issue though honestly.

Hi OP, to answer your initial question - yes, I struggle with similar guilt all the time! But like pp I've realised it's because I don't feel like I'm doing anything to change the world ... I used to feel guilty about my individual choices and that I should make different ones if they didn't fit with how I thought society should be.

I also - like you seem to, and please tell me if I'm wrong - saw gender (the social construction of what a woman is) as the important bit, as all the 'limitations' and issues in my own life seemed to be based on gender rather than sex. How I dressed, beauty ideals, women not allowed to be 'bossy' etc etc.

Then I got pregnant and my friends got pregnant and we had children and that's when I realised the biggest problems I faced were because of my sex. I had a job offer withdrawn because I was pregnant, a friend's promotion was given to someone else when she told her boss she was pregnant, another friend is currently suing her employee for maternity discrimination. The first two of those in a supposed 'woke' and progressive industry. It was me that didn't go out for several months because my breastfed baby wouldn't take a bottle, it was me that took a full year's maternity because even though my husband wanted to take 6 months he would only get statutory pay for anything beyond two weeks. It is me that has to give up years of a career to be able to have children and also facilitate my husband's job ...

And of course this isn't even getting into what vulnerable women all over the world experience because of their sex (child marriage, period huts etc)

I now see the importance of feminism as challenging the existing power structure to improve women's lot and position (including valuing domestic work and childcare). And while our family's choice for me to be a SAHM at the moment isn't the 'ideal' way to challenge power structures,sacrificing the best option in our circumstances wouldn't help other women out either!

Basically I perceive my choices as an individual re how I live my life matter much less than any action I could take to challenge the existing male-centred power structure. Be that writing to MPs, supporting domestic violence charities etc. As pp have said, I now view 'women' as a class and feminism as challenging the power structure to in turn change things for individual women. I don't believe that I as an individual can make every choice a 'feminist' one, and that indeed the concept is a bit meaningless when applied to the individual.

That's my journey! Sorry if it was too long. I've enjoyed reading your posts.

Hi @agathadragon. Thank you for your post, it was very insightful to read. I'm glad you can understand what I was trying to get at with my original post. I think you're right in that I probably overlook the issues in relation to sex as opposed to the issues in relation to gender, which may become more apparent through pregnancy or motherhood for example. I do think these issues are interconnected, but I can admit it's probably easier to follow along the path of following easily relatable and accessible parts of feminism that possibly aren't as hard-hitting (for example, beauty standards in Western culture - though I'm not saying this isn't a problem). I'll definitely look into where I can help out in areas outside of my relatively privileged bubble. Thank you for posting! (and no, your post wasn't by any means too long haha!) x

I refer to cisgender women as "cisgender women" as we were having a conversation about transgender women, and I didn't want to have any confusion over the definition of "women".

If you believe women can have penises then I am very confused over the definition of 'women' that you are using. You say:

My opinion is that the term "woman" is an umbrella term to support both biological women and transgender women.

What do you believe these two categories of people have in common? Why do they belong under the same 'umbrella term'?

On beauty standards I can recommend Beauty and Misogyny by Sheila Jeffreys.

I definitely don't fully agree with either side of the argument. I think gender and sex both exist, and should be respected. I also believe transgender people exist and should be accommodated for as a marginalised group. Those are my personal opinions, and I'm not expecting anyone else to agree with them.

I think that you will find if you start reading widely on the Feminism Chat board you will find that much of the discussion is about legal rights of women and how they conflict with those of transwomen.

There is plenty of areas that they do conflict such as single sex spaces, employment and educational opportunities and sport. And I am sure that in your reading of the board, you have picked up plenty of evidence by way of statistics, peer reviewed and repeatable studies and papers from experts that evidence these conflicts. It is a excellent resource for that information.

In the vast majority of cases, women are posting on that board in the spirit of centring females and supporting women's rights (and this includes transmen in many instances). And a nuanced robust discussion is always welcome, although closed minds and shaming women there discussing those rights is not ever well received.

@LangClegsInSpace
The UK government define gender as; "a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth.
Where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman"

So I suppose (in terms of gender) I believe that being a woman is having the internal perception that you are one. So, yes I think women can have penises and still constitute women, in terms of gender construct as opposed to biological sex.

@LangClegsInSpace Thank you for the book recommendation though ^^.

@Winesalot I will have a look at the Feminism section and possibly chime in if I think my contribution would be in anyway useful.

@feministfemme like the old guy that wanted to officially self identify as 30 years younger because he 'felt younger'. He still looked his age and no he wasn't able to do so.

@MarriedtoDaveGrohl I guess age is calculated by your date of birth, which is ultimately a fact though. Biological sex is also another fact. Gender is more about social and cultural, as well as internal perception.

The trouble with that is that most women I talk to don't have an internal perception of gender identity.

Gender in terms of 'a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity' is, for me at least, a big part of what feminism is fighting.

Why would I identify with that? It's oppressive.

To people who are saying feminism is about empowerment and freedom of expression; whilst those things may well be the consequence of proactive feminism, that is not what it is “about”. At its core it is about social, economic and political equality for women. You are obviously free to hold whatever beliefs about the role of women that you wish. But it is not correct to re-frame and re-define feminism to fit an individual’s world view.

@LangClegsInSpace I mean, I'm not sure. I can only speak from personal experience, but I do feel like a woman. Not necessarily in the context of, "I like frilly dresses and being pretty" but in the context of I, to my core, identify as a woman and wouldn't choose to be a man if I got the opportunity. From what I've read, transgender people have a strong feeling of being in the wrong body and that they need to identify and be perceived as another gender.

But ultimately I'll admit I'm not transgender, nor am I an expert on the lives or social implications of being transgender. I guess I have faith in the idea that if gender dysphoria is medically proven, that there is a distinction between sex and gender which should be respected.

I think women can have penises and still constitute women, in terms of gender construct as opposed to biological sex.

How do you think then that translates into sport, employment and the safeguarding of women who cannot due to violence and abuse in single sex provisions? Do you advocate for complete acceptance only?

Just a heads up, OP: if you do decide to post on FWR, avoid the term "ciswomen". The prefix is banned, as a) a great many posters there don't identify as "cis" and b) the term is frequently used as a slur to dismiss our opinions.

My opinion is you're not unreasonable to feel guilt about performing femininity, as by doing so you're contributing to and maintaining the fiction that that performance is what woman is. But perhaps it's just a "ciswoman" thing. I wouldn't know, as I'm not one.

If you're planning to dive into the genderism debate I'd recommend doing a lot more reading, from a much wider range of sources. Don't limit yourself to first person accounts written by people who self-describe as trans. Read up on where the idea of "woman in a man's body" comes from, investigate the opinions of the medical practitioners who've worked with and studied people who feel disconnected from their sex, and perhaps most importantly, listen to those female people who believed themselves to be trans and then realised the error in their thinking.

And then maybe give some thought to the notion that whatever this phenomenon is that you're pointing at when you use the word woman, it doesn't describe the internal experiences of a great many female people.

As for your notion that feminism is about rights for both female people and woman-identifying male people - no. Feminism is for females. Females with dysphoria and females without, females with trauma and females without, females who fancy women and females who fancy men, females who wear skirts and makeup and females with shaved heads and trousers, females of all religions and of no religion, females who understand themselves to be female and females who are in denial about it. The key underlying feature of the people that feminism and women's rights are for is: female.

I do feel like a woman

What does that even mean though?

Do all 4 billion or so women on earth 'feel' the same?

And if they don't 'feel' like women, what do they 'feel' like?

I, to my core, identify as a woman and wouldn't choose to be a man if I got the opportunity.

The opportunity?You could never be a man. It's not an 'opportunity' like getting the chance to go sky diving or bungee jumping. Being a woman is written into every cell of your body. You could no more be a man than you could be a cat or a bird.

YANBU OP
My sister is a SAHM (never worked, never will) and she sometimes feels guilt but it is purely due to how people judge her and treat her at times. She’s been subjected to some nasty comments and behaviour. Being called a Sugar Baby, Barbie doll, trophy wife, etc chastised for “wasting” her education/degrees. She’s in her 40s now and has become unapologetic but I remember during her 30s she’d get feelings of guilt and inadequacy because of the nastiness she faced.

For what it’s worth OP I have no problem with being called a woman and/or a ‘ciswoman’.

So it’s really a very subjective subject and opinion.

We are all the products of a patriarchal society, so most of us feel happier and more comfortable acting in a feminine way. There are times women may feel able to act outside this, but if they don't it is OK. The onus is on the oppressor to stop oppressing, not on the oppressed person to stop feeling oppressed.

That said, I dont actually think feminism is there to make women happy, I think it is there is build a better and more equal society, and sometimes that involves doing things that feel uncomfortable. For instance, I find it a bit uncomfortable to drive when the whole family is together and I feel there's an expectation that my male partner drives, but I make myself drive half the time so that this seems normal to my daughters.