AIBU to feel "feminist guilt" for being traditionally feminine?

[feministfemme]

I've NCed as this might be a bit of a sensitive subject, I'm not sure. (could be moved to Feminism board I suppose, but AIBU gets more traction).

I was just wondering if anyone else feels feminist guilt for being traditionally feminine - for example I wear makeup, I have long(ish) hair, I like to bake, my family are my priority, I'd like to be a SAHM etc etc .

Though obviously feminism is about giving women a choice, can't help but feeling like I've picked the wrong ones sometimes!

@qiry To be totally fair, with the absolute ease of access to information and media I think lots of young people are thoughtful as it's quite convenient to be so! I'd probably have thought about this less if to a certain extent, I hadn't grown up surrounded by the conversation.

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes I'm unfortunately very attached to the idea of perfectionism as I feel guilty if I identify with a certain community but don't represent all of the values. Almost like hypocrisy, even though it's not reasonable to expect yourself to represent every corner of a belief. Can you tell guilt is a big driving factor for me haha?

It completely answered my question, thank you.

I think that’s very important information for those of us who are, let’s say, further down the path of life.

Because otherwise it can be an obstacle to relating to each other, and (maybe patronisingly) guiding younger people or at least helping them see where we’re coming from.

Eg I really think it could help in the gender debate, if younger ones see that we don’t like anyone being labelled or categorised, but just want everyone to be whatever mixture of everything they feel like, and us older ones get a handle on the pressing need younger people feel to have labels .

I worked almost full-time until our second DC was 10. As my DH's career (finally) started to take off I began to scale back the work (latterly freelance) and have been a SAHM mum for the past two years.

I've honestly never been happier and it's never occurred to me that my choice was anti-feminist because it was my choice.

The big difference for me though is that, for a number of reasons, I'm still financially independent to an extent. The idea of being financially dependent on a partner makes me extremely uneasy.

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes

I mean I think there is quite a cultural divide between younger and older feminists (or just people in general I suppose!). I don't want to generalise or start any kind of fight but I guess the issue of trans rights really interests me. For example, there are some boards on here where women don't accept transgender people because it feels like an encroachment on the rights of women (from what I've gleaned from it anyway!) whereas for young people the concept of not identifying transgender women as women is an active act of transphobia.

If we want another (possibly even more controversial, uh oh!) stance, this also relates to feminism and transgender issues culminating in Germaine Greer - for many women who are further down the path of life (not to generalise, just what I've seen) she's a personal icon and an inspiration. However due to her views on transgender people and some comments on sexual assault, there has been a cultural shift and she is not seen as a positive element of feminism anymore by young people. I just think it's interesting seeing all the ways feminism is taking shape throughout the changing of the times, but I do think there are some sore spots between new-gen and more mature feminists that often culminate in a lack of communication and understanding.

(sorry if any of what I've said is not right / offensive, just commenting on what I've seen honestly!)

@Upherefordancing Honestly, good for you! I think it's probably my own personal insecurity that affects what I feel I should or shouldn't be doing, and maybe I just misconnect it to feminism. If you're happy and comfortable with your choices, then that's what matters.

Yes I think there’s a lack of both explaining and listening carefully.

I’m quite involved in party politics and one thing I’ve found beyond a shadow of a doubt is that you’ll never change someone’s mind unless you totally understand where they’re coming from.

I think those sore spots you mention are entirely due to lack of understanding of the other point of view. If you haven’t, I’d recommend diving into the feminist boards here, it’ll be a shock to start with but after a while you’ll have a good grasp of the logic

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes

Bring a feminist doesn’t conflict with following “feminine” gender norms.

It’s got nothing to do with it, imo.

To me, feminism is believing women should be free from damaging patriarchy, such as male violence and doing all the wifework, plus being in control of our reproduction etc

This is exactly right. Everything else is pretty irrelevant to me.

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes

I guess the issue with that is that fundamentally I can't understand what it feels like to be an older feminist woman who has grown up in a different social climate with different expectations than me. I can empathise and listen closely, but realistically I don't know what it's like.

I also imagine it's hard to understand what it feels like to be a young person in this day and age and how young people have to facilitate their viewpoints when there's so much intense information getting blasted at you from either sides. It's good to be able to have a conversation with you about this though, where we can both express our views of our own personal experiences without solely relating it to our ages, for example.

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes
I've had a look at some of the Feminist boards, and I'll do it again now - there is definitely a culture shock and a feeling of "I can't believe some people think this" in relation to certain things, but I'll do my best to keep an open mind and not make assumptions about why people think the things they do.

I’d absolutely bloody hate to be young now, you have my utmost sympathy

I was an idiot!

It was probably only dealing with being female in the workplace, getting divorced (and getting no maintenance), pregnancy/childbirth and now the perimenopause that informs my feminism.

Any woman who gets it before going through those things is pretty advanced imo

However old or young anyone is doesn't change the fact that men can't become women

I think one of the issues with the trans thing you mention @feministfemme is that we feel we are being told to accept paradoxes:

• Trans women are female, and sex isn't binary, but it is still necessary and vitally important for trans women to be able to transition

• Gender stereotyping is bad, but if you don't meet either set of stereotypes you are non binary

• Sending death threats to women on Twitter is activism but referring to a trans woman as biologically male is murder

Feminism isn't about choice because our choices occur in the context of what we are taught. If you grow up being perceived as a girl, you will have a different experience to someone who grew up being seen as a boy. The work of feminism is to dismantle this difference, not become happy with the choices that were sold to you as default.

That having been said, the above is (I guess?) a class-based analysis - I'm talking about society rather than individuals. In the grand scheme of things, wanting to be a SAHP and wearing dresses is neither a feminist nor a non-feminist action and that's ok.

Though obviously feminism is about giving women a choice

It's not though, it's about standing up for the rights of all women and girls and ending sex based oppression. Subtle difference.

Also - I'm sorry for using language that will probably not sound polite to you, but I don't think it's transphobic to say trans women are male. "Male" isn't a value judgement, it's an unchangeable biological fact - and despite a small proportion of the population being intersex, humanity is largely sexually dimorphic. Most of the people you meet, you'll be able to tell their sex, unless they've had a lot of surgery.

I think it's rude to call a trans woman a man, not least because if you have gender dysphoria it's a very upsetting thing to hear. But man and male don't mean the same thing.

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes
I mean I could go off on a whole spiel about the pressures of social media, and the entirely new body expectations placed on young people, but it's been done before to be fair. I'm honestly just trying to reduce my social media intake as well as not publicise every thought that goes through my head (unless it's on MN of course )

@Harmarsuperstar Gender and sex are different things, and so I believe that transwomen are women without being biological women. However I understand that that is not the common belief on this forum.

@spiderbride I definitely don't fully agree with either side of the argument. I think gender and sex both exist, and should be respected. I also believe transgender people exist and should be accommodated for as a marginalised group. Those are my personal opinions, and I'm not expecting anyone else to agree with them.

@LangClegsInSpace

Is the end result of doing those things not giving women a choice though? Forgive me if I'm wrong

@feministfemme I agree with you - It's a fact that some people are unhappy with their bodies and the most successful treatment for that is surgery to look like the opposite sex. Their rights should be protected like everyone else. But they will still have a fundamentally different life experience to the opposite sex - and that should be ok. They shouldn't have to hide or deny that fact to avoid violence. You'll find that some people on this forum do believe that trans women are men, but others, like me, believe that trans women are trans women, and that doesn't sound too far off your views.

I have a lot of sympathy and respect for people your age. As with every generation in modern history, your circumstances are unique - you are dealing with technologies and ideas that weren't around when we were young.

My biggest concern is that a lot of young girls with autism today are being coaxed toward transition, which isn't necessarily healthy, because at that age it's very difficult to disentangle gender dysphoria from the consequences of being taught to hate our own bodies by the media, social pressure, unwanted male attention and so on. I'm not saying this to convince you of anything, but you seemed interested in learning more about the various shades of feminism, so there it is.

You seem like a bright young woman and I applaud your willingness to learn. Never stop learning and asking questions - it's one of the most important things a human being can do

[quote feministfemme]@LangClegsInSpace

Is the end result of doing those things not giving women a choice though? Forgive me if I'm wrong[/quote]
As I said, subtle difference. We are presented with endless 'choice' these days. It's great to have choices but choice is not the same as rights or freedom.

@spiderbride

I definitely understand your concern about girls with autism, speaking as one. I think there is a certain pressure to label things that are different to the status quo, or assign gender identity to self esteem / personality / mental health difficulties. I can see why there are some issues surrounding the transgender debate, however I do fundamentally believe that transwomen are women of their own right (the same with transmen). I think it's good you can mention the difficulties surrounding transgender issues, while not rejecting transpeople outright.

@LangClegsInSpace What rights or choices would you like to see become more accessible for women? Genuinely interested

This whole “can I still be a proper feminist if I look girlie and wear pink?” stuff is very entry level feminism/trying to explain feminism to someone who has never had a critical thought in their life.

It seems at odds with the apparent insight you’ve got into your existence within a society that has ingrained gender ideals.

I would just keep reading and watching and learning OP, you might find that by the time you come to have children that you’re already very invested in an absorbing career, that you don’t want to leave behind to stay at home.

@queenofpain I think that's a bit brutal. I'm a flawed person and this is not a topic I will claim to understand in microscopic detail but I don't think I'm without critical thought. Ultimately, I think inviting people in at the baseline of what feminism means is the best way of spreading the cause, as opposed to those who already know all about it (and have probably already determined their opinion).

Re: having a job or being a SAHM, I'll agree with you there. Things may easily change and I'm not planning on making more concrete choices until I get closer to the time.

Gender and sex are different things, and so I believe that transwomen are women without being biological women. However I understand that that is not the common belief on this forum

Some TRAs would beg to differ and say that tw ARE biological women...
I think it’s interesting that you use the word ‘belief’ as what I THINK is that it doesn’t matter what anyone believes, this doesn’t change facts or the meanings of words. I can believe today is Wednesday, but that has no effect AT ALL on reality 🤷‍♀️

@Harmarsuperstar You're entitled to your own beliefs. One of the definitions of gender is; "Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female."
I believe transwomen are women- not ciswomen or biological women, but they still fall under the umbrella of a woman.

Men cannot be women though can they? It’s not a matter of belief, it’s a matter of fact