AIBU to feel "feminist guilt" for being traditionally feminine?

[feministfemme]

I've NCed as this might be a bit of a sensitive subject, I'm not sure. (could be moved to Feminism board I suppose, but AIBU gets more traction).

I was just wondering if anyone else feels feminist guilt for being traditionally feminine - for example I wear makeup, I have long(ish) hair, I like to bake, my family are my priority, I'd like to be a SAHM etc etc .

Though obviously feminism is about giving women a choice, can't help but feeling like I've picked the wrong ones sometimes!

@Winesalot In terms of sport, I think transwomen shouldn't be competing with women (trying to avoid the prefix, but does make me uncomfortable) but I'll admit I can't come up with a good solution to that as of yet. I think there are biological advantages that transgender women may have that biological women may not have (in the same vein of not allowing drugs into sporting competitions). For example, Janae Marie Kroc is a transgender bodybuilder who doesn't compete against biological women because she acknowledges it's an unfair practice. However, I don't know what a good alternative would be - I'm not claiming to have all the answers by any means, I'm just expressing some opinions is all.

@TyroBurningDownTheCloset Thank you for the heads up; I must admit I don't fully understand the reproach to the word "cisgender" as it is a medical term, but I'll try and come up with another way to phrase my thoughts. I don't agree with some of your viewpoints, but I appreciate the time and energy it took to express them and I'm listening carefully to what you have to say.

@IcedPurple I can't speak for all women, nor would I try to. I know how I feel within myself, and I listen to the perceptions of others and base a judgement off of that. I don't believe all women feel the same - hence why I believe that transgender women are valid as women.

@PlanDeRaccordement Thank you for your post! I'm not glad that other women feel guilty, but I guess it's comforting to know I'm not guilty for being "traditionally feminine". I appreciate your insight.

@RunningFromInsanity I was born female and I continue to identify as female, and I'm more than comfortable being referred to as a cis-woman when in debates surrounding transgender topics. But I'll accept that it's personal preference and up to individual choice.

I don't fully understand the reproach to the word "cisgender" as it is a medical term

Really? I have never seen it used in any medical text.

@IcedPurple

I don't fully understand the reproach to the word "cisgender" as it is a medical term

Really? I have never seen it used in any medical text.

"While some believe that the term cisgender is merely politically correct, medical academics use the term and have recognized its importance in transgender studies since the 1990s"

"While some believe that the term cisgender is merely politically correct, medical academics use the term and have recognized its importance in transgender studies since the 1990s"

You need to provide a citation for this. And what are 'medical academics'?

I'm extremely feminine. I do all of the things you list (except for wanting to be a sahm).

I'm a CEO.

Recommend you read "Feminists don't wear pink (and other lies)"

"csgender" as it is a medical term* Actually, it is not. It is scientific in origin but was not created for using with gender. And many adults truly don't 'identify' with their birth sex. There is a case for saying that if you polled all the adults in the UK, very few would identify as c's anything.

All too often, the term is used to shut down debate and to silence women.

"While some believe that the term cisgender is merely politically correct, medical academics use the term and have recognized its importance in transgender studies since the 1990s"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender#:~:text=While%20some%20believe%20that%20the,transgender%20studies%20since%20the%201990s.

“Cisgender,” when used appropriately, helps distinguish diverse sex/gender identities without reproducing unstated norms associated with cisness. For example, instead of simply saying “man” or “woman,” one would use “cis woman” or “trans man” in much the same way one would use “black woman” or “white man” (Stryker 2008). Finally, as a substitute for “nontransgender,” “cisgender” can be viewed as a way of including transgender as a categorical equal in the complex way we identify as sexed and gendered human beings.

read.dukeupress.edu/tsq/article/1/1-2/61/92020/Cisgender

We also examined whether children categorized transgender peers by their sex or expressed gender, as it might inform their evaluations. Children preferred cisgender peers over transgender peers; however, they also liked peers of their own gender rather than the other gender (e.g., female participants preferred girls over boys), demonstrating that the oft-documented own-gender bias plays an important role even when children are reasoning about transgender peers.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15248372.2018.1498338?journalCode=hjcd20

@Winesalot

"csgender" as it is a medical term* Actually, it is not. It is scientific in origin but was not created for using with gender. And many adults truly don't 'identify' with their birth sex. There is a case for saying that if you polled all the adults in the UK, very few would identify as c's anything.

All too often, the term is used to shut down debate and to silence women.

** Okay fair enough. I can admit I was wrong on that one then.

I've added some info above about why I think using "cis" is alright for me but I am also acknowledging that I will try and avoid using it if it upsets / negatively affects people.

[quote feministfemme]"While some believe that the term cisgender is merely politically correct, medical academics use the term and have recognized its importance in transgender studies since the 1990s"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender#:~:text=While%20some%20believe%20that%20the,transgender%20studies%20since%20the%201990s.

“Cisgender,” when used appropriately, helps distinguish diverse sex/gender identities without reproducing unstated norms associated with cisness. For example, instead of simply saying “man” or “woman,” one would use “cis woman” or “trans man” in much the same way one would use “black woman” or “white man” (Stryker 2008). Finally, as a substitute for “nontransgender,” “cisgender” can be viewed as a way of including transgender as a categorical equal in the complex way we identify as sexed and gendered human beings.

read.dukeupress.edu/tsq/article/1/1-2/61/92020/Cisgender

We also examined whether children categorized transgender peers by their sex or expressed gender, as it might inform their evaluations. Children preferred cisgender peers over transgender peers; however, they also liked peers of their own gender rather than the other gender (e.g., female participants preferred girls over boys), demonstrating that the oft-documented own-gender bias plays an important role even when children are reasoning about transgender peers.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15248372.2018.1498338?journalCode=hjcd20[/quote]
Wikipedia eh? And no, your selected quotes don't provide evidence that 'cisgender' is a medical term.

Can you quote me an actual medical text which refers to women as 'cisgender'?

I can only echo what other posters have said. For someone who claims to be naive, you seem to have done quite a lot of reading on the subject. And a very interesting post indeed from a first time poster.

Yes amazing for a 17 year old!

Even if "cisgender" were a widely accepted medical term, that wouldn't preclude its use as a slur. Cf "retard" or, for a more topical example, the Stonewall take on "homosexual".

As for how to express your position on sports: male women shouldn't be competing with female women is the clearest way to put it (though there'll always be some who'll then say "there's no such thing as a male woman").

At risk of sounding a bit arsey, was it the suggestion that you research more widely that you disagree with, or was it the fact that feminism is for and about female people?

I'm not a first time poster... I've name changed (though I am seventeen). I'll admit fault and back down about the word "cisgender" being a medical term, I made a mistake there.

Actually I really don’t want to troll-hunt, I was on this thread last night and was convinced OP was in good faith. She had some very interesting things to say about being young these days. Also mentioned ASD (hope you don’t mind me repeating that OP)

It's about choice. You can wear dresses make up have babies and husbands etc. But you still have the right to vote and choose that life.
I come from a rather strong active in the day suffragette family and yes the most well known did hold down a proper job in the days when women didn't work and yes actually she lived with her " female friend" ( she died around 50 years ago for context) my grandmother her niece had very strong views on female rights but she still got married ( but did the account s and controlled the money) and she always wore lipstick etc. Don't put women into boxes of type. They fought for the choice of women doing what they want not to force you to do anything.

@TyroBurningDownTheCloset
"As for your notion that feminism is about rights for both female people and woman-identifying male people - no. Feminism is for females."

I personally think feminism should include transgender people as a subsection of women. For example, black women will experience very different things in relation to being a woman than I as a white person will, but they should still be involved within feminism as they identify as women. That's my thoughts, but I am from a different generation and am probably more susceptible to be believing things that are socially acceptable. I do however, believe it.

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes I have ASD, that's absolutely fine to mention (though I'm not sure what it's necessarily in reference to?)

A quick solution to losing some of your guilt would be, I feel, to cast off this notion that you have to 'identify' as anything - you don't. You just have to be.

As regards choice in feminism - my feminism is rooted in classical Marxist class-based theory, and therefore I believe, like many PPs, that the personal is political and choice doesn't exist in a vacuum.

My individual choices, on a micro level, may not change the world, but on a macro level, they stack up. We have all been raised in a society dominated by the patriarchy and as such, we are all products of that society.

I recommend reading as much as you can, and would particularly recommend Simone de Beauvoir, who I first read when I was about your age. In addition, if you haven't read Greer's 'The Second Sex' yet, that should be top of your list.

Read, listen, question, debate and employ critical thinking. This is the path to knowledge and ultimately, understanding.

Hello, I've read most of the thread. Not going to get into the trans stuff, which I'm in two minds about tbh but as to the question of feeling guilty about being 'stereotypically feminine', I don't think there's any reason you should. I would call myself a feminist in that I'm firmly pro-women and believe we still have work to do to ensure women's rights and best interests are fully supported and protected.

However I differ from a lot of the feminists on here in that I don't believe gender is a purely societal thing. I know it's difficult to unpick nature from nurture but I have come to the conclusion that, on average, women and men are somewhat different beyond the outward biological attributes. The differences may not be massive and there are loads of exceptions and outliers, but I think they are there and it's probably a result of evolution.

I still robustly support feminist aims as I don't believe women's and men's differences should have any detrimental impact on the rights we have or the respect we are given. Unfortunately, historically and even today, women's relative physical vulnerability (size and strength, pregnancy etc), in combination with a crude and prescriptive attitude to gender roles, has meant that women are treated as 'less than'. I think we still undervalue the traditionally female role and whereas it perhaps used to be more of a gilded cage, at least for middle class Western women (the 'angel in the house' narrative), nowadays it's more that caring roles are either unpaid or poorly paid, and held in lower esteem. For me this is a feminist issue and I believe we should be doing more to empower and lift up women in this position.

I personally think feminism should include transgender people as a subsection of women.

It does. Female-born trans-identifying people are included in feminism. It's pretty sexist to kick them out in order to make room for male people.

You don't need to @ people who are on the thread, by the way - it clogs up the inbox. Just bold the name with asterisks.

@LadyJaye Thank you for your advice and the book suggestion! I may bankrupt myself buying books but anything for the pursuit of education . I'm trying to avoid putting myself into boxes, but it's difficult in this day and age I think (as well as probably being a bit of a nerdy perfectionist myself). Thank you for your post.

Another thing you'll get short shrift for on FWR is using black women as a comparator for male women. It's kinda racist. Black women are included in feminism because they're female, not because they have any particular identity.

That's my thoughts, but I am from a different generation and am probably more susceptible to be believing things that are socially acceptable

A hell of a lot of things are socially acceptable. Taking the piss out of gay people, making rape jokes, beating your wife; aborting your daughters, mutilating those that survive, selling them off at the age of twelve. Just because something's socially acceptable doesn't mean it's ethical.

@RosyPickle Thank you for sharing your perspective! I definitely agree that roles related to women (particularly things like nursing / caring) are undervalued and underpaid due to the high amount of females in these positions, and the social expectation for women to be the nurturers. I also think if being a plumber or car mechanic were jobs predominantly fulfilled by women, they would still be classed as women's work probably and still undervalued, suggesting it's maybe not to do with just "biological elements" (like being a nurturer) and is just based more on social expectation.
Thank you for contributing though, your post was interesting to read.

For example, black women will experience very different things in relation to being a woman than I as a white person will, but they should still be involved within feminism as they identify as women.

They don't 'identify' as women.

They are women.

If I 'identify' as a Japanese person, do I get the right to a Japanese passport and all the relevant privileges?

TyroBurningDownTheCloset Sorry, I'm used to social media where you need to "@" people to make sure they get your message haha.

Re; black women I guess I use them as a comparison because I see them as a subsection of women who don't have a choice about their identity. I could say "disabled women" if it makes it more acceptable to use a group for an example that you personally identify with.

I don't personally see selling and mutilating children on the same level as transgender by any means. Both may be socially acceptable in some areas but I don't think all socially acceptable things can be lumped together like that - I'm also not saying I'm solely reliant on what's socially acceptable to base my beliefs off of.

FeministFemme with regards to women's jobs, I think both are true. Caring jobs are underpaid and also the status and relative pay seems to become lower as more women do those jobs (eg medicine).