AIBU to feel "feminist guilt" for being traditionally feminine?

[feministfemme]

I've NCed as this might be a bit of a sensitive subject, I'm not sure. (could be moved to Feminism board I suppose, but AIBU gets more traction).

I was just wondering if anyone else feels feminist guilt for being traditionally feminine - for example I wear makeup, I have long(ish) hair, I like to bake, my family are my priority, I'd like to be a SAHM etc etc .

Though obviously feminism is about giving women a choice, can't help but feeling like I've picked the wrong ones sometimes!

@TooExtraImmatureCheddar I mean I personally think SAHPs should be paid on some level, as it is a full-time gig and often there are not a lot of alternatives for women (e.g. price of childcare). I definitely agree with all that you've said, sorry if I gave off the impression that SAHMs aren't / shouldn't be linked to feminism (as they are and should).

Could you explain what you mean by your post? Sorry, might be a bit thick haha.

Well, that was pretty much it.
Mainstream feminism (liberal, intersectional) believes that woman’s choice, by fault, is feminism or feminist choice.
Without any consideration that these choices do not happen in vacuum.

For you example: you like/want to/ do wear make-up, you’re a woman, making this choice, and that what feminism (again mainstream, these days) is all about.

And everybody is super empowered!

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes
I do care about women, and I am interested (I may have a few half baked ideas and preconceived notions) but I am invested. I probably, if not definitely, have some different views than first wave feminists due to the social climate I've been raised in but I'm interested in hearing everyone's perceptions on parts of feminism even if they differ from my own.

I recommend Naomi Wolf’s the Beauty Myth, for help untangling this.

I wear pink, have blonde highlights and do all sorts of nonsense to make my face look more conventionally attractive, but I know I’m doing it because I’m scared of looking unattractive. I read too many teenage crap girls magazines and internalised it.

Plus I live in a world that can be horrible to women who don’t measure up.

But at least knowing what’s actually going on means I understand my behaviour.

I’d love nothing more than to live in a world that didn’t put this pressure on us. And that’s just regarding looks. Don’t get me started on all the other ways society craps in us!

On us!

It's the difference between wearing your hair long because you want to and wearing it long because that's what your husband likes, when you'd prefer to cut it short.

@recreationalcalpol I guess I wonder what do we do in the meantime then? I'm a product of social and cultural engineering, and as much as I can have my own views and belief system, I'm not really sure what to make of things on a day-to-day basis. I can teach my children about feminism, and hope it undercuts societal pressure (and while this is happening take down patriarchal structures) but I'm not sure where to go from right here, in my own life.

Sorry, probably word vomit but I think feminism is such a complicated topic and I guess I'm questioning how it affects us all on a broader scale, as well as me on a personal scale. (On an unrelated note I really like your username though)

I don't think being a feminist means you have to behave in a more stereotypically masculine way, that somehow implies that being masculine is superior which it isn't. I think it means that both men and women can make choices and are freed up from stereotypes. I do think that feminism means that everyone has to take responsibility for themselves though, men don't get a PA/maid in a woman and women don't get someone to relieve them of major responsibilities. It means that women are treated with respect.

Feminists being guilty is ubiquitous. There's even a podcast, the guilty feminist. Every episode starts 'I'm a feminist but... '

Protect yourself, protect your family, and don't ride on someone else' financial coattails. Be an ADULT.

Gee, I wonder why some women are put off the idea of feminism when it's presented like this?

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes

I'll have a look at it, thanks for the recommendation! I guess I just wonder if knowing what's going on affects your behaviour, or if just being aware that you're to a certain extent being controlled by external expectations is enough. There is also a ton of pressure to not identify as a feminist (speaking as a young person surrounded mostly by young people) which adds to an element of ... I guess feeling as though there are a lot of philosophies being thrown around that tend to conflict. For example, in my gen agreeing with feminist principles is fine (providing you're not abrasive or angry, which is a whole other issue) but identifying as a "feminist" is often a problem. I don't really know why that is, and I guess I also don't know where is reasonable to be standing in the bigger scheme of things.

MilkOfThePuppy surely anyone with half a brain knows you get blunt or dare I say tactless people in every area of life

You have very odd ideas about feminism. I’d be very surprised if you’d read much on the subject at all.

In any event - as a feminist you’ll know that you don’t make choices in a vacuum and that wearing makeup solely ‘for you’ having experienced zero societal pressure or validation for that ‘choice’ would be an extremely unusual experience. I wear makeup too....I’m not naive enough to imagine my choices are unaffected by societal gender norms. The ‘I CHOOSE MY CHOICE’ school of pseudo-feminism ignores the reality: not every choice a feminist makes is a feminist choice.

I’m afraid I also disagree with your belief that women with children who work are now smiled upon.....try being a doctor working long hours with a child and see how often you cop a ‘question’ about where your children are, or faux concern that you must ‘never see them’. The judgment is constant.

@MilkOfThePuppy
Yeah I think this is why I feel a bit of guilt - because by some people feminism can be presented as a choice, but if you make the wrong one then you need to sort it out (e.g. it's fine to make your own choices as a woman, but if you choose to be a SAHM you're avoiding being an adult and are essentially a leech). I guess it makes the assumption that if you deviate from the typical expectation of "what makes the most sense" then you've not actually made a rational / well-thought out choice, even if it's both well thought out and a personal preference. So to a certain extent it seems similar to the ideology of "Well you don't HAVE to shave your legs / wear makeup, but if you decide not to then you're making the wrong choice".

I think there’s a generational difference here. I’m 44 incidentally. From what I can tell, younger people feel an (alien to me) need to define themselves and identify with things.

It seems odd to me, with no offence meant at all, it’s as if there’s a need to make a product out of yourself, with a clear description.

Am that description has to be externally correct and acceptable in some way. As if you’re going to be judged on it

I’d blame social media of course

Not mumsnet obviously!

@trixiebelden77

I'm not saying that women who don't work are smiled upon at all. There are negatives and stigma surrounded to both sides of the decision, however I feel like it would be wrong of me to speak on behalf of working mothers as I am not one. I'm also not even speaking on behalf of SAHMs, it's more a theory of something I would like to do in the future. I'm just saying that I experience guilt while I'm still in the capacity to make the choice, is all.

I maybe do have odd ideas about feminism, you're right. I guess I'm trying to feel around a bit and see what I agree with that other people say, so I can make further theories and adapt my (admittedly lacking) understanding of feminism. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with my ignorance if I'm in the active position of trying learn more and be more understanding rather than blocking my ears and trying to ignore feminism all together for example.

Feminism is complicated. There are dozens of branches on feminism, some of which are incompatible and contradict each other as to the root causes, appropriate goals and methods, among other things.

Attempting to fit into any ideology is likely to cause guilt. They're based on fitting to an ideal, regardless of how that ideal can ever fit in reality. Those ideals are part of what makes ideologies powerful and attractive, and potentially very damaging trying to fit one or another's life into it.

It might be more helpful to set which branch or definition of feminism aside, and try focus on what areas of helping women matters most to you, and put that into your life. Is it helping women build supportive communities for each other? Helping women victims of intimate violence? Girl and women victims of parental violence? Victims of child marriage, mostly girls, or forced pregnancies? Read broadly, see what clicks, find ways to put that work into your life, and live from there. It probably won't fit neatly into any branch, you'll have to balance the risks and responisibilities with the potential benefits, but it'll be more useful than ideological purity.

For a quick and easy book I’d recommend Jess Phillips’ Everywoman, you can whizz through it in a day

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes

I'm in my late teens (yep, get the pitchforks out!) so I can imagine there probably is a generational difference. I do feel a strong need to identify and label myself, as I imagine is majorly affected by social media (not that I really have it anymore) but I guess this is the way the current is moving and there's a sense of comfort in having words to describe yourself with. I've fallen in and out of calling myself a feminist, so I guess it would be nice to have a label but I'm predominantly in search of knowledge rather than an identity. I may at some point choose to agree with all of the feminist notions and still not identify as a feminist necessarily.

(If anyone's keen on saying, "but your username is feminist femme!" this is a throwaway account so honestly I just called it something catchy and interlinking!)

That’s really fascinating OP, such a useful insight. You sound pretty bloody smart for your age btw!

Out of interest, how possible does it feel to lose the need for that self-labelling?

See I wouldn’t feel a comfort in labelling myself, it would feel claustrophobic and over simplifying

@BiBabbles

Thank you, this is an interesting point. I have another automatic guilt reaction because if I chose my feminist "priorities" (for lack of a better word) to be supporting girls and victims of parental violence, then I would feel guilty for not having girls in child marriages be my utmost priority. I guess I treat myself as an individual the way I think society would be good to function as (e.g. trying to offer support to everybody for every problem interlinking with feminism) but this feels paradoxical and stretching myself too thin. I guess it has good intentions but not particularly useful practical results.

I'm in my late teens (yep, get the pitchforks out!)

Haha no. I hadn't read any feminist books at all at your age. You're definitely more thoughtful than I was.

Don’t fall into perfectionism OP (now I’ve gone all maternal over you )

@ImEatingVeryHealthilyOhYes

I mean I guess if we're talking about social media, having a label kind of feels like having a bit of "clickbait". For example, someone can say, "I'm a feminist" or "I'm seventeen" or "I'm bisexual" and I can instantly relate to all of those things on a surface level. To a certain extent I feel as though there's not enough time to have as many detailed conversations - for example, I might just say "I'm bisexual" rather than say "I have an attraction to men and women, but I fundamentally am more likely to end up in a long-term relationship with a man, and my views on my own sexuality are constantly changing".

I guess losing the need for self-labelling feels possible, but it comes with the sacrifice of losing relatability with your peer group. We are probably more pre-occupied with non-face-to-face communication (for example I don't think I've ever had a dialogue like this with anyone other than inside this forum) and it's quicker and easier to have a label to throw out so people get a general idea of who you are. Though that does come with the pressure of needing to know who you are and be successful at that thing very young and very fast.

Sorry, I'm not sure if that really answered your question though haha!