To think that the decision to have children is a risk...

[GreenWoodpecker123456]

...because you can never be sure whether you'll enjoy being a parent, what kind of child you'll have etc.

I ws having this conversation with someone and they said it's no more of a risk than anything else in life like getting married or going into a particular career.

I don't agree, because having kids is the one thing in life that you truly can't reverse!

AIBU?

I agree with you.

That's one reason why I never wanted them. YANBU. You're right that you can divorce, change career etc. but you can't undo a life you've brought into the world. Even if you had the child adopted, you'd have to live with the knowledge the child still existed and may or may not be happy and safe.

100%!

On the whole, I think you have a point there.

Though of course there are other life decisions, too, that might kill you or cause irreversible damage.

Similar reasons why I had kids later in life. You can get divorced and never see or think about the person again. Can't do that if you have kids with them (well unless you're a twat of course).

Sorry, don't know how the "too" ended up in that sentence.

Not suggesting children often kill you. Abusive spouses do, though, and some dangerous jobs.

But yes, often you get warning signs and can pull put. With a child, the warning signs don't matter because you still have to stand by that decision.

Yeah. It's a risk that isn't working out for me. Feel like I've gained three kids and lost everything else.

It’s a risk yes. A big risk, but with that risk comes the probability of huge reward. For the vast majority of the population (thankfully) that promise of reward far outweighs any risks

Of course it's a risk, nearly every decision we take comes with a risk.
For me, the biggest risk with being a parent isn't the possibility you might not enjoy it (children grow up and move out), it's how vulnerable you become once you're a parent. The pain of something bad happening to your children is immense. There's nothing worse.

You have to be maternal/paternal to begin with. I think it's very pessimistic to think that way.

Yup to a degree, i think having children with someone is often a true measure of what a relationship can survive.

There's a philosopher called L.A.Paul who writes on exactly this – how to make big life decisions that you cannot rationalise your way into.

She developed a thought experiment called the Vampire Problem:

If you were offered the chance to become a vampire — painlessly and without inflicting pain on others, gaining incredible superpowers in exchange for relinquishing your human existence, with all your friends having made the leap and loving it — would you do it?

The trouble is, in this situation, how could you possibly make an informed choice? For, after all, you cannot know what it is like to be a vampire until you are one. And if you can’t know what it’s like to be a vampire without becoming one, you can’t compare the character of the lived experience of what it is like to be you, right now, a mere human, to the character of the lived experience of what it would be like to be a vampire. This means that, if you want to make this choice by considering what you want your lived experience to be like in the future, you can’t do it rationally.

She dives into a lot of depth on it ( Maria Popova did a good overview of it here )

but eventually says the only way to make the decision is to ask yourself if you want to find out who you would become if you said yes:

In many ways, large and small, as we live our lives, we find ourselves confronted with a brute fact about how little we can know about our futures, just when it is most important to us that we do know. For many big life choices, we only learn what we need to know after we’ve done it, and we change ourselves in the process of doing it.

I’ll argue that, in the end, the best response to this situation is to choose based on whether we want to discover who we’ll become.

That still feels risky to me, since the impact of finding out is much bigger than me – what if I find out I'll become an unhappy mother, and that'll then impact my children?

Big part of why I don't think I'm going to have kids. No judgement on those that do, but it's not a risk I'm comfortable taking, 'hormones kicking in' or not.

I agree, my advice to women is to not have them unless they really want them and could cope with being a LP. It's a bigger decision for women. Nothing takes over your life like a child. It might be easier for higher earning women, who are slightly detached, but there's still a cost in some way that lasts forever. It also ties you to the Father, forever unless he clears off completely.

Was the person a woman who has children?

Of course it is. But thinking about it is a luxury a huge number of people don’t have. The urge to procreate is strong and irrational to ensure our collective survival.

Agree that it is a risk. I think we expect a certain life from having kids, but get something very different! I feel like life is thankless at the moment - with a full-time job, a gobby self-assured 5 year old and a determined one year old I am shattered. It is hard when they are young. I know when I look back I will be glad I experienced having kids. It's just life is far too paced to really enjoy it, which is such a shame.

My OH and I sometimes glance at each other when things are chaotic at home with the 'what the fuck have we done to our lives (and bodies)' look sometimes. We would be in a lot better position materially if we didn't have kids, but who knows how we would have felt about each other without the distraction of kids around.

@PasstheBucket89

Yup to a degree, i think having children with someone is often a true measure of what a relationship can survive.

So is not being able to have children. And keeping a relationship alive and thriving long term without children has its own challenges. That said, the saying that children are the glue that keeps a relationship together puzzles me, surely there has to be something else too?

Absolutely, and I wish more people stopped and weighed up he risk critically before barrelling ahead with such a life changing decision. To many people have kids because "that's what you do" or just have them by accident!

I love my kids but if I had know how hard it would be, how much of myself I would have to give up to be a mother I'm not sure I would have done it. I find it impossible to give them what they need from me and to have enough leftover for myself most of the time so I feel continually hollowed out by motherhood. They are older now and it hasn't got any better. I think the things I really wanted and needed to be myself were just very incompatable with having kids.

Mine are a bit older and past the very young stage but I still find it hard. People say that you can do the things you want to when they are up and away but they don't always leave home, my frieds still have kids in their 20's and 30's at home! Also I just think much of who I was is just gone at this point. I've heard having kids described as setting off a bomb in your marriage which I think is a good description but try a nuclear bomb in your life!

I know people will say I'm just depressed and I am but its because of feeling trapped in my situation and because motherhood doesn't make me happy or fufill me at all.

The idea that kids keep a relationship together is sad.
If someone thinks they wouldn't be with their partner if they didn't have kids - they shouldn't be together.

@ladybee28

There's a philosopher called L.A.Paul who writes on exactly this – how to make big life decisions that you cannot rationalise your way into.

She developed a thought experiment called the Vampire Problem:

If you were offered the chance to become a vampire — painlessly and without inflicting pain on others, gaining incredible superpowers in exchange for relinquishing your human existence, with all your friends having made the leap and loving it — would you do it?

The trouble is, in this situation, how could you possibly make an informed choice? For, after all, you cannot know what it is like to be a vampire until you are one. And if you can’t know what it’s like to be a vampire without becoming one, you can’t compare the character of the lived experience of what it is like to be you, right now, a mere human, to the character of the lived experience of what it would be like to be a vampire. This means that, if you want to make this choice by considering what you want your lived experience to be like in the future, you can’t do it rationally.

She dives into a lot of depth on it ( Maria Popova did a good overview of it here )

but eventually says the only way to make the decision is to ask yourself if you want to find out who you would become if you said yes:

In many ways, large and small, as we live our lives, we find ourselves confronted with a brute fact about how little we can know about our futures, just when it is most important to us that we do know. For many big life choices, we only learn what we need to know after we’ve done it, and we change ourselves in the process of doing it.

I’ll argue that, in the end, the best response to this situation is to choose based on whether we want to discover who we’ll become.

That still feels risky to me, since the impact of finding out is much bigger than me – what if I find out I'll become an unhappy mother, and that'll then impact my children?

Big part of why I don't think I'm going to have kids. No judgement on those that do, but it's not a risk I'm comfortable taking, 'hormones kicking in' or not.

This is very interesting. I too am mulling over the decision to have children and think it's extremely risky. There is no reversing the decision - once you bring a child into the world, you are a parent and that's it. No matter how old they are, you will always be a parent. Every other decision in life can be reversed.

But in saying that, there is the school of thought that says you are more likely to regret the chances you didn't take. I'm not sure I necessarily ascribe to that, but I also think that regret is not productive, regardless of what option in life you go for. Ultimately, I believe many human experiences are to some degree ambiguous - there are highs, there are lows and there are great swathes of mundane! Maybe going into parenting with this in mind would help to stave off regrets.

Ah how cheerful

If you were offered the chance to become a vampire — painlessly and without inflicting pain on others

Where's the fun in being a vampire if you can't bite people?

@ladybee28

That is an interestng post, I think I would have prefered to find out who I might have become if I had taken a different path rather than the automaton that motherhood turned me into.

Having children is sometimes the first time we get to experience truly unconditional love. (Not saying that nobody has unconditional love for other people or that all parents love their children but for many parents the feeling for a child is more intense than any other).
I wouldn't have wanted to risk living WITHOUT knowing what that felt like, and going through fertility issues was a terrible time for me.
If you can truly love another human being regardless of whether or not your feelings are reciprocated or whatever their actions may be, then it's not too big a risk IMO.

@Theatrically

"But in saying that, there is the school of thought that says you are more likely to regret the chances you didn't take."

I think that is less a school of thought and more what they call a platitude!