To not cross line at junction to let police past

[DiggerDave]

First post on mumsnet and could be a controversial one!

Many people don't seem to be aware that you're not technically allowed to break the law to let emergency vehicles past, including crossing the line at the lights. Police supposedly know this and Blue Light Aware, which advises on how to help 999 crews, says on its website: "On these occasions, they know that other motorists are not allowed to ‘jump’ the red light, and the emergency vehicle would ideally not activate its sirens and lights until it was safe for the vehicle in front to cross the solid white line at the junction."

The problem is that many officers don't seem to have got this memo and will attempt to bully you out the way, like one did to me today.

About 18 months ago, I pulled across the line to let an ambulance past and got a fine and three points. As the line was set back from the counterflowing traffic, I wasn't causing any danger and it was a perfectly safe manoeuvre.

I wasn't initially concerned and thought I could get it rescinded. To my surprise, they wouldn't remove it and I had to take the points. This would be a pain for any driver, but in my case it affects my job significantly. I'm a site supervisor and my job requires a Class 2 HGV license amongst other things. My employer is extremely strict and won't tolerate more than six points - it's company policy. I'm already on three now thanks to the above incident and another such incident would put me on my last chance.

I can't afford to lose the ability to provide for my family, so today when I was at the front of the queue and everybody else moved over, I made the police car wait. He started beeping and flashing and so did the other drivers. Once he finally went past, giving me an angry glare, I then had several other drivers giving me wanker signs etc.

What's a bloke to do! Really made me feel tiny but didn't have a great deal of choice! There was a great big red light camera (gatso type) right next to me so was unlikely to get away with it.

@LonelyFromCorona

How obvious are red light cameras? Are they yellow like speed cameras? I don't think I've ever seen one in my life.

Here in aus they advertise, signs, literal road signs lol They also stand out, obvious camera and it flashes if someone goes through when red We also have them ping on our GPS coming up to them, both red light and speed. Google also allows you to add mobile speed camera that then ping for other users

Yeah lots of people seem not to know you aren't meant to go through red lights etc for a blue light but they can. I think the wankers are those glaring/making signs at you

I drive with lights and sirens sometimes at work. We are specifically taught to hold back, turn off sirens and not put pressure on people at traffic lights if they cannot get out the way. You did the right thing. I feel terrible when people put themselves out so much and in dangerous positions because they are trying to do the right thing and help

We are held up a whole lot more by idiots who appear to drive despite being unable to see flashing lights or hear sirens/horns and sit right in front of you instead of pulling over when they can (or the ones who pull out in front of you or walk across the pedestrian crossings despite you being visible)

Police slowing down to glare at you is such a dick move. You'd think they are in such a hurry they wouldn't have time to be this petty.

@honeygirlz

Yeah but in the hundreds of times I’ve let police/ambulances pass you would think I would have seen someone have to cross the junction line. Hasn’t happened.

I’ve been in the car with an old boss who moved over but the ambulance ‘couldn’t’ get through (It could but didn’t want to squeeze) and he had to cross the line to let the ambulance through. Cameras flashed him and he was most pissed off but hoped that he could argue against any fines.

Interesting. I automatically pull over to the side to give way to ambulances at traffic lights, or onto the pavement if it’s safe to do so. I thought you have to make way by law!

I saw a programme about the ambulance service and remember one of the driver's saying they prefer people to stay put at traffic lights and will navigate around them, i.e. the ambulance will go onto the other side of the carriageway to cross the junction rather than other drivers start moving around to clear the way through the lights. Makes sense because if everyone has stopped it's quicker.

Bloody autocorrect: drivers

I satin the front of an ambulance with its blue light and siren on for half an hour twice through late at night Saturday traffic in south London a couple of years ago.

The driving of other drivers was shockingly bad. I got a running commentary From the driver. His view was very much that people should not try and get themselves out of the way but should leave the emergency services to work thei way through.

But there were cars pulling into the opposite lane, driving right through red lights and a few just blithely carrying on as normal who didn’t appear to have noticed the ambulance.

@RattleOfBars

Interesting. I automatically pull over to the side to give way to ambulances at traffic lights, or onto the pavement if it’s safe to do so. I thought you have to make way by law!

if it's safe to do so

and if it's legal.

The key fact from this thread is you don't get a pass to break the law just because there is an emergency vehicle behind you. And you should know that because you passed the driving test which expects you to have read (and keep up to date on ...) the Highway Code as part of that privilege. If you're a driver and you don't know that then - quite frankly - you aren't a very good driver are you ?

I spoke to a traffic cop about this a few years ago.

You may not cross the stop line at a red light unless instructed to do so by a police officer and blue lights and sirens is not an instruction.

He also interestingly said all emergency vehicles are gps tracked so if you say there was an ambulance behind you the service will be able to prove this and the fine would be cancelled

His general advice.. If its safe and legal pull over.. If in doubt stay where you are the blue driver will find a way round you

I wasn’t aware you could get points for this, OP so thank you for posting.

YANBU! In fact, I would do as others have suggested and try and find out who the driver was. Or, lots of our local Police Stations have Twitter accounts. Would be interesting to post your scenario to them, maybe they can be made more aware of the Highway Code!

I certainly won’t be crossing that line in the future and I am one who would hear sirens and move to allow the vehicle to pass with no hesitation!

I used to work at a hospital where the was a very busy traffic light junction just at the bottom of the road. If there were cars waiting at a red light, the ambulances would leave their blue lights on and turn the sirens off until the light was green again.

Some people panic when they hear sirens behind them. I've seen really dangerous driving when people have tried to move out the way of ambulances. I was almost hit by a car on the pavement at that very junction next the hospital when walking to work. A car fully mounted the pavement while moving out the way of an ambulance, and almost hit me and 2 others in the process.

The page previously linked mentions that making way for an emergency vehicle is a mitigation not a defense. You're still guilty of a crime, you just might get a lesser punishment for it.

Actual defences are that you didn't actually run the red light, the lights were malfunctioning, the lights were not approved to be there (can occur with temporary lights), and technicalities in the prosecution process.

I drive ambulances and we don't expect people to drive through red lights, I always hold back and cringe when people decide to drive through a dangerous junction when I'm trying my best not to force anyone. 98% of the time people are not dying when we get there and a few extra seconds hardly ever makes a difference. The only time you'll probably feel pressurised by an ambulance is if the driver is new/a twat, or if we are going to a cardiac arrest/paediatric arrest, in which case it's very hard to sit back waiting when a child might be dying. But we still should, and you should never perform an illegal manoeuvre regardless. Especially because we are probably going to a 111 call where someone has a cold 🙄

Actual defences are that you didn't actually run the red light, the lights were malfunctioning, the lights were not approved to be there (can occur with temporary lights), and technicalities in the prosecution process.

The key issue in this entire discussion is the automated prosecution of people jumping red lights. Because it's that process which delivers the penalty and which has no appeal.

If people are interested in legal nitpicking, the offence is that the driver causes their vehicle to cross the line. So one possible defence to a camera-based red-light prosecution is that you were hit from behind by another car which pushed you over the line. However it would need to be quite a whack as you would have had your handbrake on.

I once went over the line to let an ambulance through and got a cheerful wave. I just moved to the left of the junction. Hard to remember as so long ago and there were no consequences. However I have since learned that it is illegal. Having watched a video on what to do if an emergency vehicle comes up behind I try now not to panic and realise they should not expect me immediately get out of their way but only when it is safe to do so.
On the point of going through a green light when do my driving test I went through a green light but there was still traffic coming from somewhere and I had to stop or something like that. Again to far back to remember butvat the end of the test the examiner explained that though he didn't fail me to always remember even if the light is green to still treat it as a junction and proceed with caution or something like that.

There is no 'technically' about it. You are not allowed to cross a stop line against a red light or even go into a bus lane. If the police/ambulance/fire engine need to then they can go around on the wrong side of the road. You are absolutely right not to have gone through the light and I would have made a complaint to the local police, not that it would do any good. If you had an accident after crossing the stop line it would be entirely your fault.

The key issue in this entire discussion is the automated prosecution of people jumping red lights. Because it's that process which delivers the penalty and which has no appeal.

While the lack of discretion in automated camera prosecutions is a fair point to raise, you always can "have your day in court", though you risk a greater penalty and costs if found guilty and mitigating factors are not accepted.

I live close to a hospital and this was a real problem with the dual carriageway in and out. Both sides are often gridlocked during peak hours. after complaints to the MP whilst he couldn’t change the law the cameras were removed. So now locals know they are not allowed to cross the line but they also know there are no cameras.

@safariboot

The key issue in this entire discussion is the automated prosecution of people jumping red lights. Because it's that process which delivers the penalty and which has no appeal.

While the lack of discretion in automated camera prosecutions is a fair point to raise, you always can "have your day in court", though you risk a greater penalty and costs if found guilty and mitigating factors are not accepted.

You could have your day in court if you are allergic to money. And common sense. And precedent. And helpful threads like this.

Someone has already had their day in court - right the way to the Law Lords (if memory serves). And they confirmed the penalty.

If you read the legislation carefully, you will find (or rather you won't find) any defence for allowing an emergency vehicle past. And that is the law, with the Law Lords ruling it was not a mistake or an oversight. It's exactly - exactly - how the law is supposed to work. The summed up their ruling saying that if there was to be a change in the state of affairs (again, from memory, they weren't unsympathetic) then it was up to parliament to do it because judges can't make laws.

(I emphasise that last given recent developments in moves to abolish the judiciary on the grounds they make bad laws ....)

The case was examined in minute detail as it was novel - relying on automated evidence wasn't at all common then.

We return to the Highway Code, and the nature of being allowed to drive. It's a privilege and you obey the law. That's pretty much it.

Does the question "What should you do an emergency vehicle with lights and sirens is behind you ?" not feature in the driving theory test anymore ? It was certainly on the list that could be asked back in the days when you needed a man with a flag in front of you when I took my test

There are bloody load of traffic lighted junctions near me with central reservations so the emergency services can go on the wrong side of the road.

I was instructed by a driving examiner, during a test, to go through a red light. A motorcyclist had come off his bike at the front of our lane. There was a right filter lane which was at red, but using that to go straight on was clearly safe, and enabled the traffic to keep moving (and ultimately make it easier for emergency services to get there).

DiggerDave, is it worth talking to your employer about the first incident, and the one today, and asking what their advice would be? For that matter, perhaps you should contact the local police, apologise for your failure to move when everyone else did, and explain why you didn't move. Whether it would change anything, I don't know, but it would at least highlight the issue.

I don't blame you for not moving. Ideally yes we all would move, but not if it's going to cost you your job. The rules need changing

@Chesneyhawkes1

I don't blame you for not moving. Ideally yes we all would move, but not if it's going to cost you your job. The rules need changing

Why ?