Page 7 | To not cross line at junction to let police past

DiggerDave · 2020-09-11T00:18:41+00:00

First post on mumsnet and could be a controversial one! Many people don't seem to be aware that you're not technically allowed to break the law to let emergency vehicles past, including crossing the line at the lights. Police supposedly know this and Blue Light Aware, which advises on how to help 999 crews, says on its website: ^"On these occasions, they know that other motorists are not allowed to ‘jump’ the red light, and the emergency vehicle would ideally not activate its sirens and lights until it was safe for the vehicle in front to cross the solid white line at the junction."^ The problem is that many officers don't seem to have got this memo and will attempt to bully you out the way, like one did to me today. About 18 months ago, I pulled across the line to let an ambulance past and got a fine and three points. As the line was set back from the counterflowing traffic, I wasn't causing any danger and it was a perfectly safe manoeuvre. I wasn't initially concerned and thought I could get it rescinded. To my surprise, they wouldn't remove it and I had to take the points. This would be a pain for any driver, but in my case it affects my job significantly. I'm a site supervisor and my job requires a Class 2 HGV license amongst other things. My employer is extremely strict and won't tolerate more than six points - it's company policy. I'm already on three now thanks to the above incident and another such incident would put me on my last chance. I can't afford to lose the ability to provide for my family, so today when I was at the front of the queue and everybody else moved over, I made the police car wait. He started beeping and flashing and so did the other drivers. Once he finally went past, giving me an angry glare, I then had several other drivers giving me wanker signs etc. What's a bloke to do! Really made me feel tiny but didn't have a great deal of choice! There was a great big red light camera (gatso type) right next to me so was unlikely to get away with it.

thedancingbear · 11/09/2020 17:13

True but You also dont know they aren’t, I always put blue lights first. That’s just my take on things!

How very virtue signalling altruistic of you. Other people will choose to put the law, and their livelihood, and their kids' roof over their head, first. I think that's completely reasonable.

MillicentMartha · 11/09/2020 17:13

The fact that you can get a bus lane fine also seems more unfair to me. Bus lanes are often completely empty and if there’s no safety issue to pulling over into one momentarily but you still get fined, that seems just like a money making exercise.

thedancingbear · 11/09/2020 17:16

The fact that you can get a bus lane fine also seems more unfair to me. Bus lanes are often completely empty and if there’s no safety issue to pulling over into one momentarily but you still get fined, that seems just like a money making exercise.

Yes. The logic then would be you should slow an emergency vehicle on blue lights down so as not to slow a bus down.

Money-making exercise, as you say.

WildAboutMyPlanet · 11/09/2020 17:16

@thedancingbear

True but You also dont know they aren’t, I always put blue lights first. That’s just my take on things!

How very virtue signalling altruistic of you. Other people will choose to put the law, and their livelihood, and their kids' roof over their head, first. I think that's completely reasonable.

Okay, don’t see why you’re being rude? I just put blue light vehicles first, it is what I was taught to do. I haven’t criticised, I simply said that’s what I would have done and that’s just me. There is no need to be nasty @thedancingbear.

ProfessorSlocombe · 11/09/2020 17:22

@LUZON

Just found THIS which is from a law company that tries to get people off driving offences. This explains 'special reasons' in relation to running red lights.

That's just a solicitors advert ... unless and until someone can post a reference for a driver that did have the penalty revoked, I would - as when you drive - proceed with caution.

thedancingbear · 11/09/2020 17:29

@WildAboutMyPlanet there's no need for you to virtue signal to make the OP feel like shit about protecting his job. That's far nastier than anything in my pretty anodyne post.

MoistMolly · 11/09/2020 17:30

Be very aware that it's aconstable in uniformthat can direct you to break the law. The case I mentioned spent a very long time (and a lot of someones money) deciding that a car with blues+twos isnota police constable, and therefore the lights and sirens arenot- repeatnot- a direction. They are merely to advise you off their presence - it's your jobas the trained driver you areto then judge the correct action to take within the parameters of your capability.

I know this is taking it slightly off topic, but using the case mentioned, could it not be then argued that I don't have to stop for a police car when doing 80mph past the local school, as they are only alerting me to their presence with the blue lights and not actually signalling me to stop?

JenniferSantoro · 11/09/2020 17:31

Having read your descriptions of your incidents, you sound like a terrible driver. You’re blaming others for your own poor observations and reaction times. Of course you should move out of the way of emergency vehicles. It’s only easy to get points if your driving is bad or too fast. Emergency vehicles don’t wait until they are right on top of a junction to put their emergency lighting and sirens on. They want to give as much notice as possible. If they are able to drive around you, then they will.

ProfessorSlocombe · 11/09/2020 17:35

@MoistMolly

Be very aware that it's aconstable in uniformthat can direct you to break the law. The case I mentioned spent a very long time (and a lot of someones money) deciding that a car with blues+twos isnota police constable, and therefore the lights and sirens arenot- repeatnot- a direction. They are merely to advise you off their presence - it's your jobas the trained driver you areto then judge the correct action to take within the parameters of your capability.

I know this is taking it slightly off topic, but using the case mentioned, could it not be then argued that I don't have to stop for a police car when doing 80mph past the local school, as they are only alerting me to their presence with the blue lights and not actually signalling me to stop?

Feel free. But quite aside from the fact that it is an offence not to stop when directed to do so by a police officer, you'd also have to convince the court that you were being "reasonable" in your assumption. And that would be entirely down to circumstances ... half midday in bright daylight in the city centre - you're 'aving a larf. Midnight on a quiet unlit road miles from anywhere are you are concerned for your safety ? Maybe ... just maybe.

The courts aren't there for anybodys entertainment. But the time you get to be a magistrate or a judge you have been trained to take a dim view of smartarses.

FarTooMuchWashing · 11/09/2020 17:36

YANBU
I was going to come in and make a flippant comment about defending yourself by saying that you were only breaking the law in a limited and specific way, but having read the consequences for you of getting any more points, no way would I risk it. It’s not for anyone to choose which law they obey and which they don’t.

WildAboutMyPlanet · 11/09/2020 17:43

[quote thedancingbear]@WildAboutMyPlanet there's no need for you to virtue signal to make the OP feel like shit about protecting his job. That's far nastier than anything in my pretty anodyne post.[/quote]
What are you on about?! You’re reading things that aren’t there and seriously overreacting a TheOP asked if they were being unreasonable and I said what I would do without any judgement. Where have I been judgemental? I said ‘that’s just me’.

In no way have I ‘made him feel like shit’. He asked for an opinion and I said what I would do because that’s what I was taught to do. I haven’t judged him, told him he was wrong. He did what he felt was best as I would do what I felt was best. I was lighthearted about it, but you have taken it way out of proportion and been unpleasant towards someone who wasn’t judging at all.

MoistMolly · 11/09/2020 18:02

But quite aside from the fact that it is an offencenotto stop when directed to do so by a police officer, you'd also have to convince the court that you were being "reasonable" in your assumption.

But as you previously said, it was established that a police car cannot give directions, the lights amd siren are there to make you aware of their presence.

Therefore, it stands to reason that a police car behind me with lights and siren on, is not a direction to stop. A police officer would need to be out of the car, and in uniform to direct me to stop.

However, if a police office in a car can direct me to stop, it would stand to reason that they can give other road/traffic directions whilst inside the car?

ProfessorSlocombe · 11/09/2020 18:06

@MoistMolly

But quite aside from the fact that it is an offencenotto stop when directed to do so by a police officer, you'd also have to convince the court that you were being "reasonable" in your assumption.

But as you previously said, it was established that a police car cannot give directions, the lights amd siren are there to make you aware of their presence.

Therefore, it stands to reason that a police car behind me with lights and siren on, is not a direction to stop. A police officer would need to be out of the car, and in uniform to direct me to stop.

However, if a police office in a car can direct me to stop, it would stand to reason that they can give other road/traffic directions whilst inside the car?

I also said that courts don't like smartarses.

There is a specific law that says you stop when directed to do so by a police officer or car.

Knock yourself out

www.gov.uk/stopped-by-police-while-driving-your-rights

www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/general-rules-techniques-and-advice-for-all-drivers-and-riders-103-to-158

MoistMolly · 11/09/2020 18:17

Ialsosaid that courts don't like smartarses.

Thankfully I'm not one, just trying to get clarification.

There is a specific law that says you stop when directed to do so by a police officer or car.

Which one? I'm struggling to find it from the links you have given.

Carrotcakefiend · 11/09/2020 18:18

Similar happened to me... Got a fine for being in a box junction when I entered it to let an ambulance through, and the powers that be didn't even want to know. Even though box junction had a camera that would have shown the ambulance going past. OP, yanbu.... And you have to pity the people who thought your decision not to move gave them the right to call/sign you a wanker. Even if you were, what are they doing making a random stranger uncomfortable when they have no idea of your thought process? What happened to #bekind?!

LUZON · 11/09/2020 18:41

ProfessorSlocombe
“ LUZON “
“ Just found THIS which is from a law company that tries to get people off driving offences. This explains 'special reasons' in relation to running red lights “
That's just a solicitors advert ... unless and until someone can post a reference for a driver that did have the penalty revoked, I would - as when you drive - proceed with caution

Not sure what your point is. I know it’s a ad. I said it was from a law company that tries to get people off motoring offenses 🤷🏻‍♀️ Also, I don’t think anyone is suggesting not proceeding with caution when they drive. All I was doing was showing that there is a procedure available to people who have committed a traffic offense of getting their punishment reduced or removed.

ProfessorSlocombe · 11/09/2020 18:57

I said it was from a law company that tries to get people off motoring offences

Until someone can cite a case where a motorist was excused the penalty for crossing a line at a red light because they moved for an emergency vehicle, I'm quite happy to state it's never happened.

When the original case in the 90s made it's way through the courts, there was a lof of interest. Eventually (as I've said) the courts decided that the lack of an explicit defence for moving for an emergency vehicle was not an oversight of parliament, but their intention in drafting the law. As such it would need an act of parliament to change the courts ruling.

There is a specific law that says you stop when directed to do so by a police officer or car.

Which one? I'm struggling to find it from the links you have given.

Are you a driver ? If so you really won't ever convince a court that you didn't know a police car was indicating for you to stop for them when they signalled you to do so. To that end I'm not doing any more work for you.

this thread highlights the dangers of people thinking they know the law when they don't. And they then find out too late.

If you drive, then it's incumbent on you to know the laws of the road. And the UK driving test is the bare minimum for that standard. it really is.

BubblyBarbara · 11/09/2020 19:03

For an ambulance I’d consider it. For the feds, no way. If you just got a fine then no big deal but I’m not taking points for the rozzers.

user1497207191 · 11/09/2020 19:21

@thedancingbear

The fact that you can get a bus lane fine also seems more unfair to me. Bus lanes are often completely empty and if there’s no safety issue to pulling over into one momentarily but you still get fined, that seems just like a money making exercise.

Yes. The logic then would be you should slow an emergency vehicle on blue lights down so as not to slow a bus down.

Money-making exercise, as you say.

The other way of looking at it is that an empty bus lane is ideal for the emergency vehicle to use to pass all the traffic. If someone moves into it, then the emergency vehicle has to merge back into the normal lane to pass them. Far better to leave the bus lane empty for the emergency vehicle to use.

user1497207191 · 11/09/2020 19:24

@ProfessorSlocombe