To not cross line at junction to let police past

[DiggerDave]

First post on mumsnet and could be a controversial one!

Many people don't seem to be aware that you're not technically allowed to break the law to let emergency vehicles past, including crossing the line at the lights. Police supposedly know this and Blue Light Aware, which advises on how to help 999 crews, says on its website: "On these occasions, they know that other motorists are not allowed to ‘jump’ the red light, and the emergency vehicle would ideally not activate its sirens and lights until it was safe for the vehicle in front to cross the solid white line at the junction."

The problem is that many officers don't seem to have got this memo and will attempt to bully you out the way, like one did to me today.

About 18 months ago, I pulled across the line to let an ambulance past and got a fine and three points. As the line was set back from the counterflowing traffic, I wasn't causing any danger and it was a perfectly safe manoeuvre.

I wasn't initially concerned and thought I could get it rescinded. To my surprise, they wouldn't remove it and I had to take the points. This would be a pain for any driver, but in my case it affects my job significantly. I'm a site supervisor and my job requires a Class 2 HGV license amongst other things. My employer is extremely strict and won't tolerate more than six points - it's company policy. I'm already on three now thanks to the above incident and another such incident would put me on my last chance.

I can't afford to lose the ability to provide for my family, so today when I was at the front of the queue and everybody else moved over, I made the police car wait. He started beeping and flashing and so did the other drivers. Once he finally went past, giving me an angry glare, I then had several other drivers giving me wanker signs etc.

What's a bloke to do! Really made me feel tiny but didn't have a great deal of choice! There was a great big red light camera (gatso type) right next to me so was unlikely to get away with it.

Sounds like disgusting behaviour by the officers concerned and I’d have no hesitation in making a complaint about them

I did actually make a complaint once

DD was riding her pony along a very quiet country lane - it cuts through fields so it’s very straight and open with wide verges either side on the road. DD and her pony were wearing high-vis.

She saw a police car coming up behind in the distance (no sirens on at this point, her pony had pricked her ears so she looked back) and trotted on to a gateway she knew was ahead so she could get off the road and right out the way.

Just as she was turning off, the police had caught her up and turned their sirens on. Pony freaked and DD was bloody lucky she didn’t come off. Police sped on by.

There was no way they didn’t see DD and there was no other cars or people around at all so absolutely no need to use the sirens at that point

DD wears a helmet cam so I complained - first they lost the video evidence so I sent it again

We then got a non-apology reply complete with a bit of victim blaming - DD shouldn’t ride on roads if her pony wasn’t safe as she could cause an accident. Her pony is brilliant on roads, I defy anyone and anything not to freak if a police siren went off a few feet from their arse

I tend to stop a bit short of the line - this is more due to the fact that I live in London and motorbikes filter, so I leave space for them to get in front of me without going into the cyclist box or hanging around in my blind spot. This helps in shifting over where needed which is often the case as its the road to/from the hospital.

Just for the record for those who've mentioned having police cars flashing their lights and beeping at them... when the blue lights are activated on a police vehicle during the day it automatically activates headlight flashers so the headlights flash of their own accord. I very much doubt it was the officer flashing the lights. And as for the beeping- police car sirens are activated with the horn and most police cars have 3 or 4 different tones of siren which is changed by pressing the horn, so in order to get someone's attention who hasn't seen you it is fairly standard training that a change of siren should be used to attract attention. This would mean a beep of the horn but not necessarily in the aggressive way it could be interpreted.

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned yet as I can't be bothered to read the thread, but the Police do have the power to direct traffic and can tell you to go through a red light.

This isn't a new thing. People discovering it for the first time may be, but it's been over 20 years - since they first started using cameras to police red lights.

I can't recall the case - it may be pre Google - but a motorist crossed the red line to allow an emergency vehicle past. Flash bang wallop - photograph, fine and points. The driver appealed (naturally) and it got as far as the appeal court if not the Law Lords. But the law was clear and there is no defence of allowing an emergency vehicle to pass. From memory there was a lot of debate as to whether blues+twos constituted an "instruction" from a police officer. It was decided that they do not and therefore, pay up and shut up.

They definitely stated that it would be up to parliament to change the law in this case.

The bottom line is the Highway Code clearly states you must not break the law to allow an emergency vehicle past. And emergency vehicle training explicitly states that drivers should never try to intimidate drivers in their way (because a panicking driver is much more likely to cause an accident).

This is one reason why a rear facing dashcam might be more use than a front facing one.

For completeness, it's worth noting that this only applies to emergency vehicles on blues and twos. If a policeman in uniform instructs you to break a law, then you are generally obliged to follow that instruction and have a defence in law that you were doing so. So if an officer got out of the car and told you to move across the line, you (a) do it (or face a charge of obstruction) and (b) have a defence should the matter get as far as court.

@MoistMolly

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned yet as I can't be bothered to read the thread, but the Police do have the power to direct traffic and can tell you to go through a red light.

You must have posted as I was

Be very aware that it's a constable in uniform that can direct you to break the law. The case I mentioned spent a very long time (and a lot of someones money) deciding that a car with blues+twos is not a police constable, and therefore the lights and sirens are not - repeat not - a direction. They are merely to advise you off their presence - it's your job as the trained driver you are to then judge the correct action to take within the parameters of your capability.

Hence you do not break the law, since you aren't trained for it.

It may all sound harsh, but there it stems back to the days when laws made sense (indeed when laws were obeyed). And sometimes, legal decisions are made using a sort of reverse imagination. In this case the situation if motorists were allowed to break the law whenever they saw/heard blues+twos isn't conducive to public safety as a whole.

The acid test is: Can I be prosecuted for refusing to cross a solid line when traffic lights are red when a police car wishes to pass ?

Answer: No.

If the law required you to obey the cars "instruction" and you then got points+fine with no defence, there would have been a case that the law was inequitable and the penalty could be quashed. But as things stand, the fact a driver has a legal option means the penalty stands.

In general, English law takes a very very dim view of trying to justify breaking the law when there are legal alternatives.

@LonelyFromCorona the red light camera near me is a pale grey box on a pole with some black and yellow on it. There is a warning sign too.

What’s the ambulance with a black hood?

www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/road-policing-2/police-driving/

When exercising the exemption to pass a red traffic light, drivers of emergency response vehicles should avoid causing a member of the public to contravene the red light. The public do not have an exemption in law to contravene red traffic lights.

My DB was also caught out like this. He was at traffic lights with a blue light ambulance coming up behind him. He slowly moved forwards and over (not in the line of cross traffic) to let the ambulance go and then got a ticket for going through red light. I know he appealed it but not sure if he was successful.

@JustHereWithMyPopcorn

My DB was also caught out like this. He was at traffic lights with a blue light ambulance coming up behind him. He slowly moved forwards and over (not in the line of cross traffic) to let the ambulance go and then got a ticket for going through red light. I know he appealed it but not sure if he was successful.

If he was successful then it was a lucky day and a dozy magistrate. I hope he bought a lottery ticket.

I must refresh my memory over what the case is when a motorist is pushed over the line at a red light by a car hitting them up the rear. I'm pretty certain that is bad luck too, as the offence is crossing the line, irrespective of reason.

Write to your Police and Crime Commissioner if you have one. Also write to your MP, they are the only ones who can change the law. I’m sure the police would like this law changed as it would enable them to do their job

@BluFox

Write to your Police and Crime Commissioner if you have one. Also write to your MP, they are the only ones who can change the law. I’m sure the police would like this law changed as it would enable them to do their job

Well, they've had 25 years or so, so good luck with that.

I'm surprised that the OP couldn't get his points back on appeal. I'll be more careful in future. I take pride in being quick to notice and to react to emergency vehicles so usually make it clear that I'm pulling over. I've edged into a bus lane before but got my passenger to video it. There was no way for the ambulance to get through otherwise as there was a total gridlock. I thought I might get a fine/points but that I'd be able to demonstrate that I had to do and that I'd done it safely. Luckily I didn't hear anything.
Thanks for the thread OP

I would have moved to be honest...you don’t know what he was headed to, it could have been life threatening and that would be more important to me.

I had no idea you could get points for breaking driving codes like these when it's safe to do so, to make way for an emergency vehicle!

That rule needs to be changed.

Feel for you op. No I don't think you should put your job and livelihood at risk by following the law.

Sorry that was confused.

Following the law is fine which is what op is doing by not moving. The personal penalty is too high. It's that law which is stupid which is not ops fault.

it could have been life threatening and that would be more important to me

Very altruistic of you but I am not sure I would risk my livelihood. You don't know someone's life is at risk.

I'm surprised that the OP couldn't get his points back on appeal.

There are lots of surprises in law. This is one. Life would be boring otherwise. However the underlying logic of the law was sound. Bottom line is when you learn to drive - and pass your test - you are expected to obey the law at all times. And that is pretty much an end to that.

If you want a better scenario, imagine being on your driving test stopped at red lights, and an emergency vehicle comes up behind you on blues+twos. If you crossed the line and broke the law would you pass your test ? If the answer is no (it is, by the way) the it's no in all circumstances.

It's a little worrying there are so many people that claim to be drivers that don't know this. It does rather suggest (as I have long felt) that the UK driving test and license could do with a lot of beefing up ....

@honeygirlz

This has never happened to me in many years of driving, how has it happened to you twice?

I’ve never had to cross the junction line to let police/ambulance pass.

Are you going to prevent ambulances from passing too?

I’ve seen this happen to lots of people (from the inside view of an ambulance). I’m fully aware of the legislation and never pester people to move but lots of people hear an emergency vehicle coming and even though the lights/sirens are off at the junction, they know it’s on an emergency and move.

OP, I think the driver will get into trouble for pestering you. All the location and timings that sirens or lights were used can be tracked on an ambulance and I expect it’s the same for a police car.

I've just seen an ambulance with a black roof on the cab! Maybe they're very common and I've just never noticed them before.

I'm still none the wiser as to what it means though - have googled to no avail. @Bookriddle please come back and enlighten me.

@cologne4711

it could have been life threatening and that would be more important to me

Very altruistic of you but I am not sure I would risk my livelihood. You don't know someone's life is at risk.

True but You also dont know they aren’t, I always put blue lights first. That’s just my take on things!

@NiceGerbil

Sorry that was confused.

Following the law is fine which is what op is doing by not moving. The personal penalty is too high. It's that law which is stupid which is not ops fault.

Or the law is not stupid.

The underlying logic is that you and I are merely "average" drivers (and generally not much cop at that). Hence we are expected to obey the law of the road at all times. Because that law is there to protect us all. And that is that, really.

It's not in the public interest to allow untrained divers to break the law - under any circumstances - and endanger themselves or others.

It should be all too easy to imagine a car sneaking over a line to allow an emergency vehicle to pass only to be hit by a cyclist or car that wasn't expecting it.

True but You also dont know they aren’t, I always put blue lights first. That’s just my take on things!

Why not follow the Highway Code ? by all means go off script if you like. but then don't complain when you get points and a fine.

It's a little worrying there are so many people that claim to be drivers that don't know this

That's a pompous comment 😅. Pretty sure everyone knows you shouldn't run red lights. Are you aware of wording of the law? Do you know if 'special reasons' might apply in the situation the OP has described? I thought it would. ie the OP would have been technically guilty but would not have been fined anything or received any points.

I know you can get let off road traffic offences in certain circumstances although I'll admit I don't know the law inside out. Do you?

Just found THIS which is from a law company that tries to get people off driving offences. This explains 'special reasons' in relation to running red lights.