To not cross line at junction to let police past

[DiggerDave]

First post on mumsnet and could be a controversial one!

Many people don't seem to be aware that you're not technically allowed to break the law to let emergency vehicles past, including crossing the line at the lights. Police supposedly know this and Blue Light Aware, which advises on how to help 999 crews, says on its website: "On these occasions, they know that other motorists are not allowed to ‘jump’ the red light, and the emergency vehicle would ideally not activate its sirens and lights until it was safe for the vehicle in front to cross the solid white line at the junction."

The problem is that many officers don't seem to have got this memo and will attempt to bully you out the way, like one did to me today.

About 18 months ago, I pulled across the line to let an ambulance past and got a fine and three points. As the line was set back from the counterflowing traffic, I wasn't causing any danger and it was a perfectly safe manoeuvre.

I wasn't initially concerned and thought I could get it rescinded. To my surprise, they wouldn't remove it and I had to take the points. This would be a pain for any driver, but in my case it affects my job significantly. I'm a site supervisor and my job requires a Class 2 HGV license amongst other things. My employer is extremely strict and won't tolerate more than six points - it's company policy. I'm already on three now thanks to the above incident and another such incident would put me on my last chance.

I can't afford to lose the ability to provide for my family, so today when I was at the front of the queue and everybody else moved over, I made the police car wait. He started beeping and flashing and so did the other drivers. Once he finally went past, giving me an angry glare, I then had several other drivers giving me wanker signs etc.

What's a bloke to do! Really made me feel tiny but didn't have a great deal of choice! There was a great big red light camera (gatso type) right next to me so was unlikely to get away with it.

I used to live in London and remember stories in a local paper about this as a lot of people were getting caught at Hammersmith. There’s a fire station and a hospital nearby (and presumably a police station, I just can’t recall it). It goes against instincts not to help emergency services but the appeals process should provide an allowance / escape for these situations.

It wouldn't be down to the employer to make an allowance. If the law says that 6 points loses a certain licence, and insurance requires that a job needs that licence the employer can't change the law or the insurance.

Yanbu OP. I've seen this happen regularly but didn't know about the points.

I moved across on a red light once for an emergency vehicle - it was safe to do so, but when I got home I looked it up to check and realised I shouldn't have done it so haven't done it since. Where I work is just off a large roundabout where there is a hospital so there are emergency vehicles all the time along with numerous pedestrian crossings as it is a dual carriageway. Not sure why other posters don't believe OP, I can see it happening quite often.

I actually can't believe so many people are saying YABU. I can only assume they've just gone "bloody wanker not moving for the ambulances".

You aren't supposed to cross a red light unless told to do so by a traffic officer who is directing traffic. I wouldn't do it and I have a clean licence and don't drive for a living.

If I encounter them in the road I pull over as soon as it's safe to do so. Sometimes that's immediately, sometimes it's after a few seconds. Some people seem to think that just because there are sirens it means they need to leap out of the way regardless of what is going on around them.

I got points for moving to let an ambulance through at a red light. If it ever happens again I won't budge. Emergency drivers are supposedly trained to get round you without you having to move past a red light or even mounting the kerb. (Fine on paper but impossible at some junctions.)

I know my actions could cause deaths - but the law is very clear on what I have to do, so my conscience is clear.

yaottie I agree, obviously you should move aside when safe but I’ve had some near misses when another driver has seen a blue light and panicked

Just after I'd passed my test, I was on a busy twisty country road (single lanes) with no space to pull in safely. A fire engine tailed me with lights and sirens for three miles until I reached a junction, where I pulled in, they turned right, I looked up to find them laughing at me. It was really, really scary - I had a tiny DS in the back. Thankfully my SIL was in the car too because otherwise I might have made the wrong judgement call. Some blue light drivers are bullies.

I absolutely wouldn't pull forward, I have seen too many instances of people receiving points or fines as a result. Also round here emergency services generally go onto the wrong side of the road at traffic lights, probably because we have so many traffic cameras.

I have seen people pull into yellow box junctions before (when the exit wasn't clear) to let an emergency vehicle go past, and just think to myself why?!

Definitely not being unreasonable! And thank you because I wasn't aware of this

I feel really sorry for OP, and I can't understand how anyone cannot understand his predicament. some of the posts on this thread are really nasty.

I'm not a driver, but if you are correct and the law states you can be fined and/or given points for allowing an emergency vehicle to pass, it sounds like a campaign to change the law is needed.

I’ve known people get points for it too.
Tricky one and you should be able to appeal it, especially as our roads get busier and there are some places where they just wouldn’t get through.

It's rough that you've got the points OP, especially as you were trying to do the right thing. Personally I don't move for blue lighting emergency vehicles after discovering that I could get points a few years ago. Just pre-Covid, I was the first at some red lights, a police was blue lighting with a siren going just behind me, but I didn't move. He seemed pretty mad and when the lights changed I let him pass obviously - but the look the one in the passenger seat gave me was pretty nasty (I couldn't hear what he said). I rationalise this by saying if it was that important to them they could change the law but I'm not going to get points just to save them 10 seconds. Just concentrate on staying calm and moving when legally allowed to do so, but don't stress about it!

Yanbu OP and actually really appreciate you starting this thread as I was also unaware that you could get fined/points for this. I would have assumed the "it was safe and I was letting an emergency services vehicle through" explanation would cancel out the points/fine but as it doesn't then noone should be crossing that line.

Those saying you should have moved are ridiculous, I'd take a large wager that not a single one of them would voluntarily give up their livelihood and uproot their family in a similar situation... Its utter bollox.

I'm a police driver and we are all trained the same and that is to not force people through red lights, onto kerbs or any other compromising situations. The driver should either hold back and find an alternative route as someone suggested above which is normally driving (carefully!) on the wrong side of the road or just turning the siren off and waiting until people can move out of the way safely. Any emergency drivers that are forcing people through red lights should be reported.

I don’t blame you. Are you supposed to risk your job? Sounds like the law needs to be changed.

We experienced some really dangerous driving from a police car two weeks ago. I wish I had taken the licence plate to complain or we’d had a dashcam. We were driving in a semi-rural area and traffic was flowing freely on our side, but a queue had formed on the other side. A police car was stationary in a little cut out part in front of a large gated entrance to a field. I assumed they had been parked there to look for traffic violations. Anyway, they had been waiting to pull out for a while and were getting nowhere because of the queued traffic directly in front of them. They turned their lights on, so the cars in front of them hung back and allowed them to pull out and they pulled out directly in front of us, forcing my husband to do an emergency stop with our kids in the back. Our car skidded and my husband lost control for a short time. The police car then turned its lights back off. I can only assume they put the lights on simply to pull out in traffic and were not attending an emergency after all. We got going again and they were in the left lane coming up to a roundabout. They swerved directly in front of our car without any indication, causing more sharp braking for us. Again, no lights or sirens to indicate that they were attending an emergency.

Even if they had been attending an emergency, it clearly wasn’t safe for them to pull out in front of us when we were so close. I don’t know what they were thinking.

The law with respect of traffic lights is that on green you proceed IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO.

If we are given the right to make that decision which we clearly are. In a case where there is an emergency vehicle this rule should also apply and preclude us from prosecution.

I have not read the whole thread.

In my shoes I’d move.
But in OP’s situation? Not a chance! I’d be tempted to report the police car instead...

The Law should be changed.

So many lights round here. I've seen police cars literally stuck because there is no where for anyone to go. Traffic in all four lanes in both directions stuck on red ...

No one moved cos well red light...

Theres usually enough space to cross slightly and not obstruct the turnings

I have seen people perform acrobatics with cars to let vehicles past - up on high curbs, swinging into other junctions, poor ly angled parking in too small spaces and always thought it crazy. The reality is you should always drive with an awareness of what you are going to do if there is a blue light, I would be complaining on twitter pages of the service that harassed you to break the law and explain what it is like for the pro driver in these circumstances. Would they still behave the same for an ambulance - well yes as it would still be breaking the law to take the action needed to let the vehicle through. They may have priority and everyone is prepared to give it WHERE THEY CAN SAFELY DO SO ie not breaking the law which is there for safety purposes

YANBU , I won't be moving for a blue light vehicle if it would land me with points and a fine. As others have stated they are meant to be trained to move around traffic lights and understanding as to why drivers won't move at the lights

Sorry to add on I will always move when safe to do so

I'd rather pay a fine than let someone die.

Thing is, it’s not just a fine. It’s points on your licence and that results in an increase in insurance until the points “drop off”.

The rules are clear and breaking the law (eg going through a red light) is breaking the law regardless of your intention.

I will always do my best to get out of the way for an emergency vehicle but when it has happened when I’ve been at lights I’ve only gone over the line where I was VERY confident there wasn’t a camera.

The emergency vehicles can do the “illegal” manoeuvre such as going on the wrong side of the road etc.

given that you have previously been given points for this and your livelihood would be affected if the same happened again, you weren't unreasonable. most people, whose livelihoods don't depend on driving, would take a slight personal risk like this in order to help save someone else's life if it wasn't dangerous to do so, but you aren't in the position of being able to do that.

if the delay today materially affected the police officer in the pursuit of their duties in a significant way, they will have mentioned it in their daily paperwork. it might be helpful to write to the local police station to let them know that you were made to feel criticised and insulted for obeying the law and protecting your employment. the local police service should both improve the training of their drivers to ensure they are aware of these laws, and should also spearhead any move to changing the law if they believe it would be appropriate.

any change in the law would have to be really carefully worded. it would be very easy to cause a severe accident by pulling across the line at some junctions. I suspect the law is actually as good as it can be given the potential for disaster if a driver makes a wrong judgement, and that therefore the only fault is with the police driver.

You don't break the law for an emergency vehicle. If you cross the line at a red light you are putting yourself and others in a dangerous position. Many lines at traffic lights are set back to allow larger vehicles to turn. If you cross it, even for a good reason, you could at best block the road and at worst cause a collision.

If it is safe to do so, you should pull over to the left. If you cannot pull over safely then you keep going until you find somewhere you can.