To not cross line at junction to let police past

[DiggerDave]

First post on mumsnet and could be a controversial one!

Many people don't seem to be aware that you're not technically allowed to break the law to let emergency vehicles past, including crossing the line at the lights. Police supposedly know this and Blue Light Aware, which advises on how to help 999 crews, says on its website: "On these occasions, they know that other motorists are not allowed to ‘jump’ the red light, and the emergency vehicle would ideally not activate its sirens and lights until it was safe for the vehicle in front to cross the solid white line at the junction."

The problem is that many officers don't seem to have got this memo and will attempt to bully you out the way, like one did to me today.

About 18 months ago, I pulled across the line to let an ambulance past and got a fine and three points. As the line was set back from the counterflowing traffic, I wasn't causing any danger and it was a perfectly safe manoeuvre.

I wasn't initially concerned and thought I could get it rescinded. To my surprise, they wouldn't remove it and I had to take the points. This would be a pain for any driver, but in my case it affects my job significantly. I'm a site supervisor and my job requires a Class 2 HGV license amongst other things. My employer is extremely strict and won't tolerate more than six points - it's company policy. I'm already on three now thanks to the above incident and another such incident would put me on my last chance.

I can't afford to lose the ability to provide for my family, so today when I was at the front of the queue and everybody else moved over, I made the police car wait. He started beeping and flashing and so did the other drivers. Once he finally went past, giving me an angry glare, I then had several other drivers giving me wanker signs etc.

What's a bloke to do! Really made me feel tiny but didn't have a great deal of choice! There was a great big red light camera (gatso type) right next to me so was unlikely to get away with it.

The only thing I cam suggest is that you go to your MP, set up a Facebook page or something for people in the same boat and put the pressure on. You're in a perfect position to put pressure on getting this changed.
People should not be given points for allowing a bluelight through, it does need considering at a higher level.
Not knocking you for this post but this post won't change it. Channel your frustration towards those who can change it.

Incidentally I have part mounted pavements on narrow roads to let emergency vehicles through. That is also illegal but ONLY a fine, not points or any insurance knock on.

Blue light drivers are supposed to be trained to avoid instances such as the OP has experienced. They aren't supposed to bully people out of their way and cause them to break any law. The OP did the right thing. The police driver got their planning wrong and put themselves in a position of relying in the op to move - a properly trained driver would have held back and kept their options open (such as wrong side of road driving). Or, if alternatives weren't possible then their training is to turn off the sirens and wait

I live very near a crossroads with quite narrow roads and 3-way lights (plus a pedestrian phase). I couldn't count the number of times that I've been at the front of the queue on the most minor road and seen people pull forward to let a police car or ambulance through. The junction is often gridlocked both ways east-west, so using the wrong side of the road often isn't an option for the emergency vehicles (it's narrow too, historic towns and modern traffic don't really work).

There are cameras at this junction, too, but I wonder if they're just for traffic monitoring as I've never heard of anyone getting a penalty for it.

@IndecentFeminist I didn’t mean an allowance by the employer, more that the traffic authority could remove the points and fine

How obvious are red light cameras? Are they yellow like speed cameras?
I don't think I've ever seen one in my life.

I do think points should be able to be removed in these instances. People naturally want to be helpful to the emergency services and if the manoeuvre is otherwise safe and considerate of surroundings then crossing a road marking should be OK.

Whenever I've driven, I've always found other motorists considerate about allowing vehicles to get back into position once the emergency vehicle has passed.

@ThePawtriarchy

I was going to say YABU but given the points, I see your point. Was it given by a police officer?

Same here.

Is actually be sending in a complaint explaining what you said in your OP.

I'd rather pay a fine than let someone die.

Holding up a police car for 2-3 mins won’t cause anyone to die. 95% of the time, neither will holding up an ambulance or fire engine.

I have pulled forwards loads of times, and had no idea you could get points (in fact I am sure I have read that if an emergency vehicle is also in shot, you get off). But I certainly don’t blame OP for staying put, and it is ridiculous to equate that with killing grannies.

I recently attended a speed awareness course in which they said that you should wait until the light turns green before you move over.

If I were you OP I'd make a complaint about the police driver who tried to intimidate you. I would also wonder whether there was a defence of duress to such a charge.

I've moved across the line many times to let emergency vehicles though. I knew you could get points for it, but I would expect an appeal to be successful. If it wasn't, and I was going to lose my job over it for getting more points, then no I wouldn't move.

I had an incident with a police car on blue lights and sirens a few weeks ago.

There’s a section of the road where the pavement is about a foot and a half lower than the road - there’s a high kerb, then a very steep slope down to the pavement for about 100 yards or so.

Driving along there when a police car comes up behind me with lights and sirens - he drove right up my arse and I could see him making aggressive pull over gestures in my rear view mirror.

There’s no way I could have pulled over safely without risking an accident/trashing my car myself. As soon as I was passed the section, I pulled over. He shot past me with this partner glaring at me out of the window.

It was quite scarey and intimidating - he was right up my arse.

Unfortunately I didn’t get the reg or I would have made a complaint

No one should cross the line at a red light.

You're 100% correct. From vague memory, the guidance from a senior Police body responsible for traffic was that you should not break traffic laws to let an emergency vehicle through. And as you found out, it is no defence in law.

Thanks for the post. I'd (obviously wrongly) thought it was the case that you shouldn't cross a red light of your own accord but should do if the emergency vehicle flashed you across.

I wouldn't move for a police car in this scenario, i wouldnt move for a normal looking ambulance either, but if its an ambulance with black on the roof of the cab, then yes i would move

@honeygirlz

Why don’t you take advice from your employer on how to handle this in future OP?

Is his employer allowed to tell someone to break the law? Or is the employer supposed to break the rules (probably set in place in order to comply with company insurances) therefore making the company insurance null and void instead?

That's really unfair, OP.

I'm grateful for this post too - I'd foolishly assumed you'd get away with any implications on appeal. I was only having this debate with myself last week when I was caught at the front of the lights with a police car coming through. Thankfully just as I was considering driving over the line the lights changed anyway, but I may just start giving myself a bit of extra room to move in future.

Not so easy if you're in a great big lorry though! And re lights, I know a lorry driver once said to me that the most dangerous coloured traffic light is green as it takes so much longer to stop when it changes. I give lorries a bit more benefit of the doubt now if I see one going over an amber light.

A friend of mine had a police car pull up behind and put on flash lights and siren. So he pulled forward of the line and to the side to let it go.

The same police car then pulled up and ticketed him for jumping the red light!!!
Last I heard he was appealing - not sure what the outcome was.

Admittedly this was in the US - but the story has made me very wary of not breaking any rules to let emergency vehicles pass.

@DiggerDave YANBU in the slightest. Anyone saying they would move in your situation should be put to the test.

I drive about 10-20 miles a week and I've seen emergency services need to get through plenty of times. I'm pretty sure I even went over the line for them once or twice at a roundabout, I'm glad I've read your post as I had no idea this was illegal and you wouldn't get it written off. That's so bad!!

Definitely speak with your company (but I guess you already have) and let them know the circumstances of your points in case you were to accidentally get more, so they may be lenient if they have the capability to.

And speak with the police station. As mentioned, they should be able to work out who was there at that time and be able to have a word with them. I'm so sorry this happened to you and police in no way should bully you into breaking the law!

I certainly would not pull over the line knowing it's illegal and could cause me trouble, I would make every conscious effort to let a vehicle pass in any other way, though, and I'm sure you would, too

@Bookriddle

I wouldn't move for a police car in this scenario, i wouldnt move for a normal looking ambulance either, but if its an ambulance with black on the roof of the cab, then yes i would move

What's that about @Bookriddle? I've never noticed such a thing - what does it mean?

Thanks to the OP for this - I had no idea you could be fined for this, I will tell my DP because he drives for a living and I don't know if he's aware of it.

If there is a police vehicle behind with blues and twos running then surely you would be crossing the red light under the direction of an officer? (obviously won't work for ambulance/fire but...)

I'm glad you posted this OP. I had no idea. We're at our financial limit right now and increased insurance premiums due to license points would be another kick in the teeth.

Please, please report this. If the police driver was beeping at you, flashing lights and demanding you move, his/her dash am will have it recorded and a complaint to their boss may result in a re-education of officers, reminding them that this is not allowed. You absolutely cannot force someone else to break the law!!

I certainly wouldn't cross the line at a red light to let an emergency vehicle through. But in our area, I've frequently seen them go on the wrong side to get round, no bullying of drivers.

Former bobby here (ducks).
It’s been a while since I did my blues and twos training but IIRC there was nothing in it relating to how to deal with a scenario outlined by the OP or anything similar. Nothing to inform the officers on the course of the legislation surrounding people coming a cropper for going over lines to help emergency vehicles get through. I’m not sure if that was a fault with the training in that particular force or a national training package. I will say that it would never occur to me to start making aggressive gestures etc whilst on duty, in full uniform in a fluorescently marked police vehicle with blues and two’s going (bring the force into disrepute anyone?) but things have changed now and not necessarily for the better. Sounds like disgusting behaviour by the officers concerned and I’d have no hesitation in making a complaint about them.
Having said that I also think (and I’m saying this having passed the standard driving test many years back now) it would be useful to somehow have a section in driving lessons and the test/hazard perception to show new drivers how to deal with emergency vehicles. I’m not sure how that could work as the last thing emergency services need is people practising in front of real life emergency runs but again, I can’t remember even having it discussed in lessons as a possible issue.

So you have a firm belief if requirements, you know what you are going to do. What is the question in your post?