Boys using the girls toilets.

[tarasharp]

Hi I’d just like people’s opinions on whether they think this is wrong. My granddaughter who’s 15 was upset yesterday because of the new system at school whereby the toilets are mixed. Apparently because of the way they’re all split into groups it’s the only way they can all use a toilet closer to them. My dgd knew of the changes during the holidays and worried about it, she knew the boys would cause problems, which they have.

The problem yesterday was the fact. that a group of boys were upsetting the girls by banging on the doors, shouting rude comments, and basically loitering doing their best to cause mayhem. My dgd suffers from very heavy periods and hated the fact that boys were immediately outside her cubicle whilst she sorted herself out.

My dd phoned the school to complain because there was supposed to be an undertaking that these toilets were monitored during break time and they weren’t. Do you all think this is wrong, and if so, is there any solution? Thanks in advance.

@FelicityPike

It’s only a toilet. If you can’t be seen while in the cubicle, I don’t see the problem?

because if you are dealing with a heavy period, you might come out with blood on your hands.

Poster posts about issue affecting girls, problem caused by boys

ONE...TWO...THREE...

What about Men? Girls do it to Boys too.

I don't know if it's stupidity, internalised misogyny, targeting by MRAs or a wonderful mixture of the three.

The issue is about individuals feeling and being safe in their learning environment. Even more important when these individuals are minors, I would say.

Dgd hasn’t gone into detail about the dirty comments these boys were coming out with, she doesn’t need to. I well remember what boys were like at this age. Toilets used to be our little safe haven away from the boys. I’d have hated it too.

It’s only a toilet. If you can’t be seen while in the cubicle, I don’t see the problem?
So you'd be happy with people banging on the door while you were in there, then possibly harassing you when you came out?

The school may do nothing if one person complains but if multiple people complain they will get sick of the phone calls. Get her friends parents to complain too. Get the girls to complain.

@parietal Use loo roll to remove the most of it and wash your hands when you leave the cubicle as normal? It’s only blood. I still don’t see the issue? Sorry.

It’s only a toilet. If you can’t be seen while in the cubicle, I don’t see the problem?

Really? Cubicle is not the same as separate room. As a teenager, I was already self-conscious going to toilet when other girls were present, or changing sanitary protection with all the crinkling packaging. There is absoutely no way I would have done it with boys banging on flimsy cubicle doors with often broken locks and often so small one could easily look in from under or over.

@FelicityPike

It’s only a toilet. If you can’t be seen while in the cubicle, I don’t see the problem?

Really? If you had to use a toilet at work, would you be happy with your male colleagues banging on the door and shouting out rude things while you were trying to use the toilet???

@BowlerHatPowerHat of course not, but that surely can still happen in single sex toilets?

Perhaps your daughter should ring again and if she gets another shitty response she can ask the staff member if they'd like men banging on the toilet door and being incredibly rude while dealing with her period.
If the rule was a member of staff is present then that's what needs to happen.
I'm surprised at the rule though. In my daughter's school the girls and boys toilets are very close together, what's the reason for sharing? Do some of the girls have to use the boys toilets? What a stupid idea.
Complain and escalate for sure.
I know it's different times but really....

@Notcontent of course not, but hopefully the people I worked with would behave better as adults? Also, as I replied above, that could well happen with single sex toilets too.

@FelicityPike

It’s only a toilet. If you can’t be seen while in the cubicle, I don’t see the problem?

Cubicles only create a visual separation, they do not separate sounds. Girls dealing with periods may well have blood on their hands or clothes that they need to deal with. Girls often need to adjust clothing after leaving the cubicle and may want to change clothing. Girls may need to ask for help (e.g. more loo roll) when in a cubicle. It is right that girls have a single sex space they can go to to deal with personal care. We should be teaching girls that they should expect and have a right to single sex spaces when they are vulnerable, which obviously includes wen they are in a state of undress. Completely closed cubicles can create their own problems as they make it more difficult to see and help girls who are locked inside.

What benefit is there to girls in opening up their single sex loos to include boys?

FelicityPike - But the issue has arisen due to the change in set up - the DD hadn't had these issues before.

YANBU at all- I’d be raising hell about this.

Write to the Head, the Governors and threaten to go to the papers - also ask Mumsnet to move this thread to the Feminism boards where you’ll get proper advice and support.

Are you on Twitter? Lots of women on there and orgs such as Transgender Trend and Safe Schools Alliance who can advise you.

Mixed sex loos are not in girls’ interests for all the reasons other posters have said.

It is a legal obligation to provide single sex loos. Raise merry hell and do not back down.

If they don’t deal with it go to the local authority, write to your MP- and write to the Daily Mail. That should make them take notice.

Do not let your DGD suffer because of this lunacy.

'What about Men? Girls do it to Boys too.'

Yeah, I know. I went through 7 years of senior school, an all girls school, without a single incident in the toilets. We all did. Because girls, generally, find it less of an amusement to try to embarrass other girls because they're on their period or in the loos or whatever.
Teenage boys, esp. in a unusual/novel to them situ like this one are much more likely to play up.
I'm not saying some boys won't be as uncomfortable as the girls, I know my DS would be, I just know that have of his male friends would find it hilarious to shout, rattle doors or whatever.
Supervision is need, if these aren't new, purpose built mixed loos ( with floor to ceiling cubicles, no urinals, open sinks and open to the corridor outside so then there will be issues.

Yeah, I know as in It's VERY annoying to have the - what about the poor men/boys comments when we're talking about something that happened to a girl.

'
What benefit is there to girls in opening up their single sex loos to include boys?'

None. This is because of Covid...

FelicityPike - I would be embarrassed to show myself as so lacking in empathy as you have done with that question. Can you really not imagine why this might be awkward for a young girl?

Mixed sex toilets are a space where sexual assault and sex is more likely to happen in a school. As cases of rape, upskirting and sexual assault are rising in secondary school (and rape happening in primary) in the UK if the school says these toilets are supervised then they need to be supervised.

There's evidence online about how mixed sex spaces can lead to poor outcomes for women and girls.

These toilets will only be legal if they are completely enclosed floor to ceiling and have a sink inside.

Anecdotally I know of schools in the North of Scotland that have mixed sex toilets and pupils meet there to engage in sexual intercourse. Maybe tell the school about that.

Have they done a proper risk assessment?
Have the considered the law?
Are the prepared to provide counselling for victims of rape and sexual assault?

YANBU at all.
There is a requirement for single sex toilet blocks and any unisex toilets should be a fully self-enclosed room (not cubicles within a toilet block).

This has presumably been caused by Covid and schools needing to isolate bubbles? If there are constraints caused by the building layout then the school are between a rock and a hard place. A school near me has two female toilet blocks and two male blocks - as a result they've got two bubbles, KS3 so years 7, 8 & 9 and then KS 4, which is way too large but it's hard to see how else they could do it.

As they've decided to make the toilets mixed sex they'll need to figure out a way to stop this bad behaviour, by supervising the toilets.

I do feel for schools, having to go through this palaver of 'separating' grps of kids in corridors and loos who will then spend the day together in the classroom or n sports teams or socialise outside of school together.
Our kids have to line up a metre apart in the playground in their class grp to then walk into a small classroom where the 30 of them all sit together all day with limited outside time and breaks because of 'staggering'. Makes NO sense. So the point of them standing a metre apart to then spend the day in a small space together is what exactly?

[quote FelicityPike]@Notcontent of course not, but hopefully the people I worked with would behave better as adults? Also, as I replied above, that could well happen with single sex toilets too.[/quote]
So what else do you excuse because it could happen elsewhere?

The contempt for women and girls from those who trot out well what about this, that or the other or say well it doesn't affect me, I don't see the issue is disgusting and horrifying. Little wonder women and girls are dismissed and disregarded.

I hated my periods when they first started. I cannot imagine the embarrassment of a boy standing right outside. I'd be so terrified of them climbing over the top I would quite definitely not come to school.