AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

[doctormumoftwo]

I am thinking of leaving my job and I desperately need advice from other people who may have been in my position. I have two children who are 2 and 6. I work as a junior doctor/surgeon and am halfway through my training/exams. My DH is a full time a doctor. I love my job but it is very stressful. We could get by on DH salary alone but it would mean a big change in lifestyle (no holidays etc). I acknowledge I am very lucky to be in this position. I have been part time since I started but I am falling behind on my surgery and I have realised I can't continue part time as I need more surgical experience to gain competency. I also have final exams to take which means many hours of revision. I will be working flat out for the next 5 years minimum (nights, weekends, exams etc). Due to COVID our parents can not longer help regularly. It will be less stressful (but still demanding) as a consultant. DH cannot go part time to help. Despite the long hours we work, we can't afford private school, we live in a small flat with no garden. We will have to put the kids in school/nursery from 0745 - 6pm 5 days a week, or have a nanny for >50hrs for us to both work. My child's school is not great, there is not much community outside the school. My heart breaks for them, especially the 2 year old. I feel like I am sacrificing their childhood for my career. I have worked so hard to get where I am, invested money, time and incredible effort, but it feels like the demands of my job are just not compatible with being a decent mother. I don't know what to do. Our part time nanny recently quit handed in her notice. My child's reading is falling behind and they always ask me to play but I don't have the time to give them. I am thinking of giving up work and being a mum. I feel so guilty to continue leaving them for so many hours. I don't think a part time solution is going to work any longer because of the surgery, as I am falling behind and I spend many of my unpaid days off at work 'catching up'. I enjoy my job but I am incredibly stressed and sad about the toll it is taking on us all- that I know will not end for many more years. What should I do?

I am not a doctor or a surgeon, just a mum who worked full time. I can only tell you that by around 8 years old they need you less intensely. Could you maybe put it on hold for six or seven yeara?

I would just give up work to be a mum. Can you not keep doing your job part time? That means you keep your hand in and can ramp up when the kids need you less.

For context, I'm a single mum in a BIG job, I've never had a reliable man. A lot of the time I feel like I'm failing my kids because I'm stretched thinly. I do worry what the long term implications are.

I don’t think you should give up work completely. In a few years your children will have very different needs, and in a few more after that they will have fled the nest.

If you don’t like where you live now, you don’t have family support, and the school isn’t great, would it be possible to consider moving house? Presumably doctors are needed everywhere? Would you feel better if you were living in a house with a garden?

Life in your current home without holidays etc doesn’t sound as if it will be much fun.

On the work issue, is there a reason your DH couldn’t change his hours so he could do more child stuff? I understand he says he can’t work part time, but is that actually true? Do none of his colleagues in similar positions work flexibly (male or female)? It doesn’t seem fair that his career gets the green light whereas yours is struggling.

I think you would regret not passing your exams in the longer term.

I'm a nurse and I know how much you guys put into your training and how many long long hours you have to work. It made me realise how nice three 12 hour shifts a week are. I wanted to retrain as a doctor at one point until I realised how much of your life you have to give up for the job and I wasn't willing to do that. Is there a way of changing your speciality to something a bit less demanding than surgical? If you wanted to of course.

I'd be very tempted to leave the job to be with my kids personally. Are there any other options apart from changing your speciality? I can understand how part time probably isn't great if you're training as a surgeon. I don't envy you at all - a career in medicine is so bad for a good work life balance and so many of the doctors in my unit don't have kids or partners and I think this is quite sad.

Is there a different solution such as moving to an area of work that us not so demanding but still uses your medical skills and knowledge? I work part time which has killed my career (City type role) and I often feel as though it’s the worst of both worlds, and I am failing as a mother and in my career. However, other times it’s the best of both worlds with relatively high pay for a few days work, especially since I moved to a less stressful role. That said, I still resent the fact I feel I’ve failed in my career and haven’t progressed past a fairly junior level despite 15 years of experience. It’s a very personal balance. Is it possible to try being SAHM for a while then return to work if you want to, either in current role or another?

I would fully qualify then make the decision. You can then work part time or however you want to dice and change your job. It sounds like you need better support at home (a different nanny?) and I would look to change schools if you aren't happy with the one you have (maybe you need to move to an area where you can get a larger place?)

Btw I worked full time and I remember feeling like this (but I was also a single parent so didn't have much choice). I just wouldn't want to waste all those years of training you have done so far for a parenting stage that does change and get easier.

I feel for you OP. Many of my colleagues are in the same boat, horrendous mama (and papa) guilt, long commutes, stressed about work and about home,

But I’ve seen them when they are nearly at the end of their training so excited to be nearly there and within reach of a “normal” life.

My advice would be don’t give up!! You’re literally saving lives every damn day and your children will grow up being so so proud of you. Talk to your colleagues, I guarantee you are not alone in feeling this way, share ideas with them. Set yourself little goals and countdowns until you are a badass consultant!! Definitely talk to your dh about sharing the load, about what you can do together to get you to the finish line. Move house, hire a nanny, hire a tutor just don’t give up you warrior

So you've been part time for 6 years already but your DH just can't possibly go part time and so you're going to give up your career entirely?

I think you'd probably end up regretting it. I realize it will be grueling and you will hardly see your children until they are 11 and 7. But if you give up you will likely feel pretty unfulfilled in 3 years time when they are both in school 5 days a week.

Echoing what others have said really.

How will you feel when they are teenagers and going off doing their own thing a lot more ? Will you be disappointed that you didn’t finish training then ?

I hear you about the 5 years still to go and being in nursery so long, there’s no perfect answer unfortunately.

My 3 were in nursery from 7.30am-6pm 5 days a week and I would rush to work, rush to nursery, rush to feed them etc, for years (and I’m not even a Doctor, nor have the salary to match). We are out the other side now, I work remotely, we will have some money and they don’t seem emotionally scared by the experience.

You and your DH need to work together, surely he can reduce his hours, you can move locations - why work like dogs for a tiny flat with no garden and rubbish schools?

Relocate and try and finish your training would be my suggestion. You will have so many more choices after that.

Don't give up your career at this point. You will regret it. Use in-home help.

Thats a really tough one. Are you a qualified doctor training now to be a surgeon? Could you scrap the surgery part and pick another less demanding specialty?

In the blink of an eye your children will be grown and spending your life with guilt and having regrets is no life.
I would be loathed to give it all up too, can you transfer into something with less stress and where you can maintain your part time status without it imposing into your home life? It might not be your dream job, it may not fill your potential but if it enables you to be a happy wouldn't it be better?

Worked with many doctors and I think still only 10% of surgical trainees are women. Seen some swaps out of surgery to education roles in Medical Schools.

Can you move specialty training? Know someone who has made the move - you’re on lower grades for longer and still have exams (things will ease up when smallest goes to school).

Can you do anything out of programme?

I also imagine from what you have said that you live in the south as a doctors (even in training grades) would normally buy a decent starter home in the north - but lots of doctors now, unless both are full time and consultants, use state.

I wouldn’t give up my career full stop as you never know what is down the line. I’d be wary about giving up medicine when you start prepping and doing it when you are 16. Unless you really are at the end of the road with wanting to do it. But it doesn’t sound like you are?

Have you got any senior female colleagues you can discuss it with?

Finally, has your husband completed on his exams and training as you’ve done may leave and childcare to enable it? If so he has a responsibility to back you up too.

Thank you so much, I am so grateful to hear any responses to this and I welcome kind advice. It feels like the hardest choice in the world I really appreciate your thoughts. I have so much respect for all the mums put in these challenging situations x

@Pluckedpencil thank you so much. That is good to hear. Sadly I cannot put the job on hold, the most I would be granted off is 3 months 'to make a decision' as you loose your skills and they want to fill the job.

@ulanbatorismynextstop thank you so much. To become to be a confident surgeon you sort of need to be full time (8-5.30 plus weekends/nights on call), especially at the stage of my career when I am becoming more senior. I am struggling part-time with getting enough exposure to gain skills and confidence. It feels like the commitment needed is too intense for part-time work. So much respect to you for being a single mum with a big job. I share your concerns about the long term implications. I feel spread so thin too, I can't meet their emotional needs which makes me worry about the long term also.

@Solasum thank you so much. We are desperate to leave the city but it is very difficult to transfer jobs, almost impossible. I would also still have the same problem of working many hours and not seeing children (with longer commute). If I gave up we would move out of town (bigger home, garden, school) but it would mean a long commute for DH, (which he doesn't mind if I was at home to support him). He is nearly finished so he can't go part time- although he's allowed, it would have a negative impact on his career prospects (there is still quite a lot of sexism about this in medicine). There is a big chance I would may regret giving it up it in the long run but I feel totally stuck in the short term- I have 5-6 more years of very intense full time work and it breaks my heart to have to sacrifice all the time with my kids for that achievement.

@toiletpaper thank you so much, it is so hard in the NHS, for all of us. I cannot really re-train as if I wanted to be a GP I would still have another 3 years FT or 6 years PT with similar intensity (as you have to do Paeds/General medicine jobs in hospital) and take 3 exams. It would be easier to stick with what I am in.

@Ruralretreating thank you. I hear you with the failing on all counts. This is why I feel I need to choose one or the other. Sadly moving area is not really an option until I finish in 5-6 years. That is what we had planed to do.

@SallyCylicAcid thank you for this. A good nanny would really help, but I worry about the impact of us both working so hard when the kids are so small. It's a tough call for any nanny, with COVID, small flat, parents away for long hours etc I would love to finish- but at the moment it just feels like being able to do that is at the children's expense. I realise I am very lucky to have a partner in a job that could support us, given that choice, would you still continue to work a crazy schedule? It is such a relief to hear it gets easier, thank you.

Give it up
I did. Not a surgeon but full on financial job involving long commute and study.

No regrets.

The children now 8 and 10, and I’m back part time in local completely different job. Enjoy it, much lower pay, no stress.

So good for my children and I benefited so much too

Deliberately not assuming over salaraies - doctors salaries have stagnated like many others and I imagine in London, it’s not ideal. Also know changing specialities or training programme locations can be hard and some are competitive.

I’m going against the grain here, but in your place I would quit. I used to do an extremely demanding but very rewarding job. It was a progressive career, rather than just a job, and it required routine very long days and lengthy absences. I decided that I wanted to raise my children myself, rather than put them into nursery full time. I didn’t want their abiding memory of childhood to be me rushing around and passing them from pillar to post to be able to do a job that left me exhausted for the little time I was with them. I left my career behind without a backwards glance. Children are only children for such a small time really. I also read an article by a palliative care nurse about what people regretted at the end of their lives, and she said that nobody ever says they wish they had worked more. They wished they had had more time to spend with their families and the people that mattered.

It’s a deeply personal decision. You have to do what is right for you. If you’re going to give up your career, you also have to be confident in your relationship with your husband. Will he resent you? If you did split up, and you had no easy career to pick up again, your financial position would be so much more precarious.

I hope your life gets easier, whatever you decide.

I think a critical point you have mentioned is your nanny recently quitting. At your stage in my career I had 3 under 6 and we had some major childcare issues. Finally fell lucky with a decent nanny who still helps us many years later. Medicine always demands more. I’m a medic. Worked part-time since children but always you need extra time to allocate for ‘work’ - additional learning/ admin etc probably means factoring in an additional day at least of childcare to put some slack in for you. Surgery is a tough specialty. Don’t kid yourself it will be easier when the kids are older and you are a consultant- two consultant parents is a tricky juggle for family life. At the moment I imagine finances are also a strain. Are you both dead set on surgery? Would another specialty be more forgiving? Also remember to look after yourself first.

I used to be cooking at 5pm whilst the children playing around me, radio on, and think - I am happy and not stressed. I really remember that.

I still often do the above still (now more after schooL activities , well Pre lockdown) my daughter playing whilst my son reading or on his switch - and I thank my lucky star I am not rushing around like a bike arsed fly and the children are so content and settled.

Can you not transfer departments? I have read before working on surgery ward is difficult to maintain a family/work balance.

Honestly, I would not recommend giving up your qualifications and job to rely solely on a man. One day you will want to return to work, why don't you just redirect your career and put some work in?

Also I don't understand why you both are living so poorly. There are hospitals all over the country?

I’m at the Bar (and in an area which requires a lot of travel).My DH is as well. I remember after my second wanting to quit. My career was not going well and home life was not much better. It all just felt like “what’s the point?” We had no money, because it all went on childcare. We had a huge mortgage for a small house

I remember speaking to a colleague who told me, “don’t give up, just keep your foot in the door”. I carried on part-time. I’m not going to lie, at times, it was not much fun, but it got better. I now earn more then my DH and am doing really well. My youngest is in school so our childcare costs are massively reduced. We actually have disposable income.

So my advice don’t quit. Consider if transfer to another area may be more compatible with your life.

He is nearly finished so he can't go part time- although he's allowed, it would have a negative impact on his career prospects (there is still quite a lot of sexism about this in medicine).

So your husband CAN go part time. He’s just choosing not to as it will have a negative impact on his career prospects. Yet he’s presumably happy for you to give up your career completely? You’ve done the part time already to enable him to progress his career when the children were small. It’s his turn to make sacrifices for the next few years.

As for older needing you less

I guess it’s how you parent

I want to be aRound for my teens. They won’t need me to wipe their bum but I went to be available for times when they have friendship / school / teacher / emotional issues

I had that with my SAHM and I want to do The same for mine. Hence now back in only local and part time

Hey,
Its really rubbish isn't it. I'm a paeds trainee, so no where near as bad as surgery.

So, I think you need to keep your hand in the game. Are you married to surgery? If I were you, rather than giving up, I would apply for gp training. You can do it part time easy. It'll all be in the same place. The last year to year and a half is all in a gp surgery which will be nine to five so you only have to do a bit more hospital medicine. Depending on how part time you do it, you could be done in as little as 3 years.

Problem with surgery is not only is it really hard, but you've also got the bottle neck to get to registrar level... Presumably you've not got past that yet if you are still thinking exams. Obviously, this means you are having to work extremely hard so you are competitive.

While I've had my children young my first priority was just keeping it going. But I acknowledge that is much easier in paeds run through than in surgery. If you possibly can, just keep it going.