AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

[doctormumoftwo]

I am thinking of leaving my job and I desperately need advice from other people who may have been in my position. I have two children who are 2 and 6. I work as a junior doctor/surgeon and am halfway through my training/exams. My DH is a full time a doctor. I love my job but it is very stressful. We could get by on DH salary alone but it would mean a big change in lifestyle (no holidays etc). I acknowledge I am very lucky to be in this position. I have been part time since I started but I am falling behind on my surgery and I have realised I can't continue part time as I need more surgical experience to gain competency. I also have final exams to take which means many hours of revision. I will be working flat out for the next 5 years minimum (nights, weekends, exams etc). Due to COVID our parents can not longer help regularly. It will be less stressful (but still demanding) as a consultant. DH cannot go part time to help. Despite the long hours we work, we can't afford private school, we live in a small flat with no garden. We will have to put the kids in school/nursery from 0745 - 6pm 5 days a week, or have a nanny for >50hrs for us to both work. My child's school is not great, there is not much community outside the school. My heart breaks for them, especially the 2 year old. I feel like I am sacrificing their childhood for my career. I have worked so hard to get where I am, invested money, time and incredible effort, but it feels like the demands of my job are just not compatible with being a decent mother. I don't know what to do. Our part time nanny recently quit handed in her notice. My child's reading is falling behind and they always ask me to play but I don't have the time to give them. I am thinking of giving up work and being a mum. I feel so guilty to continue leaving them for so many hours. I don't think a part time solution is going to work any longer because of the surgery, as I am falling behind and I spend many of my unpaid days off at work 'catching up'. I enjoy my job but I am incredibly stressed and sad about the toll it is taking on us all- that I know will not end for many more years. What should I do?

I guess part of it depends on how much you want to be a surgeon? Is it still your dream or is it just a pathway you’re on. If being a surgeon is your absolute dream then I wouldn’t give it up. But if it’s more that you’ve started down this route and now feel like it’s a waste to give it up because you’ve done so many years, then I would think about changing career.

So basically you can’t go part time DH can’t go part time but it’s your problem as a woman.

He is also a parent whatever his job is.

Don’t give up your career, at the very least change direction if there is no other choice. You and DH seem totally non-compromising maybe it’s time to start.

followed the path she wanted to rather than what was expected of her.

Hmm okay. I think the path expected of wives of surgeons is exactly the one she took.

I on the other hand had to give up my career when I had my daughter as I am a single parent, I was bitter for a while but now she is a teen I know it was the correct decision and so glad I changed careers and was around for all school events and most sports events, can’t get that time back,

I had an exhausting role and I DID quit for the kids when they were a similar age.
Discovered the stress got worse. I couldn’t relax, worked out that I wasn’t someone who would be able to live a ‘slow’ life. It drove me round the bend and I was more unhappy. I also discovered to my shame that my calm patient nanny has been far better for my kids when it came to arts and crafts and lazy days than their perfectionist mum. In the end a very dear friend sat me down and told me to go back to doing what kept my brain buzzing because trying to be someone I wasn’t was simply not working for anyone.
I went back and winged it for a few years until I could turn the job part time and then get best of both worlds.
One tip. Both I, and a surgeon mum I know with 4 kids who qualified as a mum, swear by using good au-pairs, on top of nursery/nanny. We generally ended up brilliantly competent au pairs and the occasional lazy but crazy fun au pair (and usually had Male au pairs too).
Lots of ball-juggling but now I can pick and choose my work hours. My surgeon friend and her surgeon husband also made it through to the other side (and now have option of private work to boost earnings).

@Teateaandmoretea I’ve known her several years, she as much as it’s hard for some to believe wants to be a stay at home mum, I was sceptical at first but she is genuinely happy.

I'd try very hard not to. I left a less steady career than yours when my kids were small. And regret it. Not the time I spent with them obv, but what I've lost in terms of income and yes, prestige (it was one of those jobs people go oooooo you do that? Wow! I seem to have spent the last 20 years explaining why I 'only' do a bit of ad hoc part time here and there.
My understanding from female doctor friends who have children is that once qualified and in your specialism you're can work part time quite easily. You seem to have done the hardest graft while having kids quite young. I wouldn't jack it in now unless there's a sure fire way of picking it up again

I pursued my career 100% when my I was a single parent of one child. He had an amazing childminder. I dont do nursery because I think they should be in a proper home either with a childminder or nanny. Men dont feel guilt so why should we. The children will adapt. They always do. Get a good nanny so they are at home as much as possible. If you give up now you will regret it hugely in a few years time when they are both in school, leave home. Your opportunities will have gone. But ultimately the decision is yours. Your husband seems to have made his decision. It's a shame it has been left to you to make all the hard decisions about your children. I'd always go for career first because you cant rely on men long term.

I was in a very intense, long hour job (not medicine, though, law) when I get pregnant and had to make a similar decision. I was a single mother so it wasn't an option not to work but I did have to have a massive re-assessment of whether I could work at that level. I decided to go into another area of law and to move to a different area of the country (which compensated for the drop in income).
You need to ask yourself; is it surgery or nothing? I think I would be looking at training to be a GP in your position, which I understand could be a lot more family friendly, whilst still meaning that you maintain a career (which I think is important for a woman).

As a consultant surgeon with 2 children I understand your pain, but many people get through it, it gets easier. There are many options without quitting altogether. For example taking 6months unpaid leave just to get through exams without quitting altogether.
Have you joined the “mums in Surgery” Facebook group? Lots of support there.
Also I would expect your husband to help more. Can he go part time too? If you are both doctors you both have equal intelligence (although don’t forget studies have repeatedly shown better outcomes with female doctors and surgeons, so perhaps for the good of society you should ask him to quit his job) and equal financial power, you should take equal responsibility at home. It is really good for children to have a father with a strong role in their upbringing.

Can you do a bit of visualisation. (This is taken from 7 habits of highly effective people). When you have some calm time (possibly seems unlikely) imagine in the far distant future, that your friends, family and colleagues are gathered to celebrate your life after you have passed away. What do you want them to say about you.

Your children
Your partner
Your friends
Your colleagues.

Only you know the answer to whether it is the right thing to do for you. Your family is important but so are you as an individual who has worked so hard to get where you are.
How can you have a fulfilled life for you AND feel like you are giving your children everything that you need?

I would quit op, I would do something else. This is too much and the implications on your children too great. Sucks but it just doesn't seem compatible with being a parent.

You would be better off changing specialities tbh. Get a good nanny. Don’t give up. I did and regret it some ways now as it’s too late to go back. I am there for the children, but you can’t have it all it seems. DH is a consultant orthopod plus CSL and HoA so is never here really. Now the children are older, they all have different interests so it is a difficult juggle. The other thing you need to consider is if you did ever split up, where would that leave you? Good luck, it is a tough decision.

As a surgeon you will have the high earning potential. You’d be mad to give up all you’ e worked for - how about DH goes part time, locums or re-trains as a GP?

Could you re-train as a podiatrist then become a foot surgeon at a later date?
Or you could re-train in a less demanding health care role such as a OT or prosthetist.
It’s a huge sacrifice to make. If your heart is still in it a really excellent nanny could work for now. It’s not just what’s best for the children.

@doctormumoftwo growing up my parents very much sounded like your family. My dad was out of the house 15 hours a day and my mum worked long hours in a stressful job. We had a nanny who worked 7.30-6.00 mon-fri (my grandparents weren’t local).

My dad encouraged my mum not to give up work which I know at the time she regretted (80s which was unusual and in the early days the nanny was paid more than her). But our nanny was great, we built a really strong bond with her now and still see her regularly (my sisters and I are all 30s).

Things that worked well, my parents never worked weekends that was family time. I know doctors schedules can be anytime but try to have one day a week as a family.
My mum delegated a lot of the child admin to the nanny (buying school uniform, going to the dentist etc) which meant she was less stressed, and when we spent time with her it wasn’t doing stuff kids find boring!

When my dad hit 50 he had to give up work, my mum became the sole earner and was until they retired. If she hadn’t carried on working they would have been stuffed as by this time she had progressed in her career to a very senior role and could afford 3 x children’s school fees and the mortgage.

Looking back I think my mum does regret missing out on our childhood a bit but if you ask her she wouldn’t change her decision, it gave her independence and a purpose after children. Her work is such and essential part of her. I am so proud of her, she set a great example to me and my DSIS who have very successful careers.

My dad is also proud of my mum, the way things worked out he took over a lot of the household chores (a bit of a shock initially) but they are a team and very much respect each other. I know they were both relieved that she had carried on with exams and worked hard when we were children as it built them a secure future.

It's always the woman who takes the hit though. OP you are clearly as educated as your DH, just reflect on that for a bit.
Is he worried about the situation at home or are you smoothing his way for him?
If you are in London could you maybe move? You would definitely be able to afford a garden somewhere else.

I was a corporate solicitor worked round clock international travel at moments notice. I never went back after dd1 took 6 years out happiest years of my life and now self employed in law and earning decently. Was right choice for me but job wasn’t right for me anyway and dh amazing and supportive.

Read a quote on here “of course I want to break the glass ceiling but do not want to use my own and my children’s heads as battering rams”. Summed it up for me.

He is nearly finished so he can't go part time- although he's allowed, it would have a negative impact on his career prospects (there is still quite a lot of sexism about this in medicine)

OK this jumped out to me. Giving up work altogether will have an even more negative impact on your career prospects. Why is he so much more important than you?

Why not start being the change you want to see? My friend's husband went part time when the children were wee and it did negatively impact any promotion. But guess what? Kids get older, he went back full time and because he is good at his job promotion came his way, maybe just a few years later.

Your DH taking a few years part time may pause his career, at worst, and enable you to maintain yours. Plus he will be in the vanguard of change in a work environment that sounds like it really needs it.

You must have already done 5 years studying to be where you are. If your eldest is 6, you've done it all with her and then a newborn. It seems such a pity to have got this far and give it up.

I became a single ft working mum when my kids were little. With commuting they were in childcare from 8am to 5 or 6pm.

They're now grownup and I have asked them what it was like to grow up with a ft working single mum and spending so much time in childcare (very good childcare I was 100% happy with, always made sure of that). They both said they wouldn't have it differently, because it taught them good self discipline, resilience and social skills. They said that they wouldn't have had the wonderful holidays and activities they loved. They are now in good studies/careers and are very well adjusted young adults.

Think hard as to what is driving this decision. Exhaustion? It will get better. Guilt? It might be self inflicted for no reason as they might not be half as negatively affected as you are letting yourself believe. Missing your kids? That's a good reason, but you might find you very much miss the buzz of you career when you are home 24h/7 with your kids.

There were many times I felt like you and envied my or or sahm friends, but now that the kids have moved on, I'm so relieved I stuck to my career.

Just a warning; general practice would not be 9-5pm more like 7-7pm but no on calls and you would see your children at weekends.

Just wanted to add, if you are passionate about your career, much of your guilt is yours, not your children’s, they know no different and you are a great role model and once past the early years it gets much better, pretty certain your children will be proud of you as you will yourself, it really does get easier as they get older.

I had to give up my career due to not being able to go on call which was required at least once a week. I had I help, looking back a good nanny would have helped.

Ultimately as another said what do you want to do, once you know it’ll all fall in to place.

*had no help

In response to why not just take 5 years out....If you take significant time out of medicine you’d basically have to retrain, exams expire etc due to a process called revalidation where you have to show exactly what you’ve been doing for the last 5 years in order to remain a registered medical practitioner. Having said that, plenty of people do take a few “years out” although they usually continue to work in this time, just not in training. So you could get a job as a non training SHO for a few years while kids are young then try and re-enter training? But it’s risky - giving up a training post in surgery is a big deal because it’s so competitive,

I am also a junior doctor and would really echo the advice about trying to find a mentor. Have you talked to your educational supervisor about this? I would also definitely look into less than full time training, they are no longer allowed to discriminate against this and there are plenty of trainees even in acute specialties who do less than full time with children. If you are committed to surgery, it’s that or get another full time nanny (assuming your partner won’t switch to part time training).

I would also strongly consider a more family friendly speciality. Only you know what you would enjoy but some springing to mind are radiology, public health, occupational medicine, GP (only 3 years training being the big factor why a lot of people make the switch) and psychiatry (my speciality, we don’t get many surgeons making the switch but it’s a great work life balance and lots of people train part time! Training is 6 years though). Psych along with certain medical specialities (derm, rheumatology etc) where things generally improve as training goes long (on calls from home etc) and are much less frequent when you’re a consultant.

OP would not be left “unqualified” as she still has a medical degree! This is part of what is so frustrating as a junior doctor, It’s been nearly a decade since I finished medical school and people still think you’re a student!

Good luck with whatever you decide

It sounds incredibly sexist that the woman not the man is making these decisions! If my husband 30 years ago could find childcare etc I don't see what stops men in 2020 doing so (we both have always worked full time with 5 children and I didn't take maternity leaves -just used 2 weeks of annual leave).

We have doctors in the family including my sibling and it can be a tough job although I am not sure it is always worse than the City lawyers' hours in the family can be but it is not a competition.

I would go full time if I were you and pay for the childcare. We each paid half our net salaries for full time childcare when my first baby was born. One reason I have afforded private school fees (and university fees for that matter and indeed the post grad law fees I just paid for the youngest two) was because I had always worked full time. When teenagers your children won't thank you because you didn't play wheels on a bus with them for 10 rather than 2 hours a day but they will thank you for buying them the iphone they want and helping them out with university costs.