AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

[doctormumoftwo]

I am thinking of leaving my job and I desperately need advice from other people who may have been in my position. I have two children who are 2 and 6. I work as a junior doctor/surgeon and am halfway through my training/exams. My DH is a full time a doctor. I love my job but it is very stressful. We could get by on DH salary alone but it would mean a big change in lifestyle (no holidays etc). I acknowledge I am very lucky to be in this position. I have been part time since I started but I am falling behind on my surgery and I have realised I can't continue part time as I need more surgical experience to gain competency. I also have final exams to take which means many hours of revision. I will be working flat out for the next 5 years minimum (nights, weekends, exams etc). Due to COVID our parents can not longer help regularly. It will be less stressful (but still demanding) as a consultant. DH cannot go part time to help. Despite the long hours we work, we can't afford private school, we live in a small flat with no garden. We will have to put the kids in school/nursery from 0745 - 6pm 5 days a week, or have a nanny for >50hrs for us to both work. My child's school is not great, there is not much community outside the school. My heart breaks for them, especially the 2 year old. I feel like I am sacrificing their childhood for my career. I have worked so hard to get where I am, invested money, time and incredible effort, but it feels like the demands of my job are just not compatible with being a decent mother. I don't know what to do. Our part time nanny recently quit handed in her notice. My child's reading is falling behind and they always ask me to play but I don't have the time to give them. I am thinking of giving up work and being a mum. I feel so guilty to continue leaving them for so many hours. I don't think a part time solution is going to work any longer because of the surgery, as I am falling behind and I spend many of my unpaid days off at work 'catching up'. I enjoy my job but I am incredibly stressed and sad about the toll it is taking on us all- that I know will not end for many more years. What should I do?

I think I would also leave work. If you don't need the money as such, you will probably be happier. If my husband was a doctor, I'd have a little part time job in a shop or something, and pick my child up from school every day! It comes down to how important your goal if being a surgeon is and whether you think you would regret it.

OP, you really do have a lot of options here. I know they all feel impossible, and you have dismissed them all, but you really do need to think more seriously about:
-Your DH going part time for a while. This is not impossible, and I find it terrible trust you both refuse to even consider this option. The sexism here is ridiculous.
-Get another nanny. They are out there, and many two career households cope. It can be done.

I think you will massively regret it and resent your apparently unsupportive DH in a few years once your kids are a bit grown and at school all day and you've thrown your whole career away.

Why are people say it would be impossible to restart in a number of years if you quit now.? Surely if you have your medical degree you could start again at a later date.? I thought the nhs was always screaming for staff

Genuine question. Why couldn't she start again in day 5 - 10 years.?

Also Tea &Empathy is another FB group worth joining for advice and support, aimed at medics.

Think carefully. I gave up medicine (not surgery) and for many, many years I struggled with a loss of self, and didn't really want to mix with doctors and ex med school friends. I felt that I'd let the side down.

It's been years now and I'm more comfortable with my choices. The kids are adult and I've found a niche that uses my knowledge now in a flexible, non-medical field. However, if I had my time again, I think I'd stick with medicine - easier said than done I know!!

Honestly I would stick it out. The older they get the less they want you. I had the option to pick my kids up from school rather than kids club the other day so I asked would they like me too and it was a resounding no. They wanted to play with friends after school not come home.

I also quit my job (not a career like yours) when I had my third and after 4 months was desperate to go back. The sitting around at baby groups and monotonous routine was too much for me. I also didn't want my life achievements to be wrapped up in my children. They are there own people with their own achievements. I am proud of them honestly but I also wanted to be proud of myself. I'm not saying its been easy and in the middle of covid I cried at work more times than I like to remember but it's so worth it to me.

Look into life in 5 years time. What does it look like when your children are at school 5 days a week? Would you feel more guilt for not being able to afford extra curricular activities or holidays?

I am a surgeon mum of two - my children are 8 and 5. The last few years were tough but it IS getting massively easier as I get more senior and the children get older.
I am in my final year of registrar training and did most of my training as LTFT (80% works well as you are seen as full time by others). You need to tell yourself it’s a Marathon not a sprint and be picky about your training opportunities. Become the rota coordinator as this gives you some control. Be mega organised. If you DH is a senior SpR then he WILL be part time in the future. More consultants end up with at least one weekday off once on calls / weekends kick in and they can do all their admin from home go in later etc as their own boss.
If you are in London now - be prepared to move after your husband finishes his rotation. You can get an inter Deanery transfer. Join the PGMUK Facebook group, join WIST as the RCSENG, get a mentor. If you are struggling think about coaching from the professional support unit in your Deanery.

I have been there as the struggling trainee as it was tough but I am so glad I rode the storm. You are currently having a childcare crisis but It will get easier - so much easier to find affordable help for school age children.
In the meantime your DH does need to share the burden . PM me if you want a chat

People on here are a bit naive about what medicine, and surgery in particular, involves. Ultimately, if you carry on, you aren't going to be the ones raising your children. Which will probably be fine, and like most, they'll be ok and grow up with excellent work ethics etc. But I have known children who's parents weren't around completely lose the plot in their teens and twenties. Who resent their parents hugely. Who didn't feel prioritised and as a result don't share their problems when their older. You are risking so much relying on other people to be doing the lions share. Your ethics, morals, standards, manners, etc are being taught to your children by other people. That's a hell of a risk, and I have known lots of people it backfired for. An au pair cannot replace a parent and the years before about age 9 are the foundation your entire life and sense of self rests on. I think what you want to achieve is only possible with a lot of money (for top rate childcare, Norlands, private schools) or incredible family support (aunts, uncles, gps around the corner and very present in your lives) or both. It's so unfair, but I think I would completely re think my career in your position. Even if you were fully qualified already, the hours would still be incredibly intense and I think your children need more from you.

This is why I gave up my career as a lawyer. 9 years ago. I don't regret it. In the next few years I will look for a job but I am no longer interested in an all consuming career. I have seen from my colleagues who have kids what that looks like and it is not what I want for family life.

Hi OP, I hear you, it's a hard slog and about to get worse. I am an anaesthetist - now consultant w 2 DC, but had DC1 with 3 years of training to go.

First of all, part-time is not your friend in training, as you already realised. At least if you go fulltime, you'll be able to afford a nanny and finish faster. Also, full time nanny is automatically part of your bubble (in a way that a part time nanny can't be as she has to work for more than one family) - something I had no idea I would appreciate last year as, like you, we also previously relied on grandparents (and still do, but less due to the restrictions).

Secondly, how much do you want to do surgery per se? I remember facing that choice many years ago and a wise senior trainee said to me that you want to be sure you like surgery 100%, not even 99% is enough. I realised that what she was saying, in my case, would have meant no children, possibly not even a partner unless they were prepared to drag around the country with me from post to post for years (I'm not in the UK). Is there any other path you'd like to try in medicine? Or para-medical - e.g. medicolegal/advisory/academic medicine/similar? You haven't done your final exams yet, if you retrain now, the beginning of the new training time is often gentler, so you'll find you have time for your children, then, as they grow up you can ramp up as well. There is no right answer here, you need a few hours to yourself (hard right now as well!) to think this through. Is there a mentor you trust and can speak to about this? Preferably more than one, as sometimes senior medics can be a bit tunnel visioned too - you need to see more than one tunnel then!

Thirdly, you need to have a chat w DH - he needs to be more supportive if you want to stay in medicine or any other career. There are ways for him, but HE needs to look for them/negotiate for them/basically put his money where his mouth is in terms of allowing both your careers to thrive.

There is no way I could be where I am without my DH, but he's tenure track academic whose hours are more flexible than mine - he does all the drop offs and pick ups and reading etc. He does work in the evenings when the kids are in bed. He's no saint and I find I still have most of the mental load, but he does try his best most of the time.

Most importantly, we have a full time nanny for DS2 (and DS1 after school). We pay her extra to do cleaning/tidying/hanging up & then folding away laundry (DS2 still naps solidly + she's training him to be a helper when he's awake, b/c even sorting pegs is fun at his age). This is something I specifically screened for when interviewing - she needs to be "your" person.

Lastly, a word of caution for the future, part-time doesn't always work for consultants either, depending on your area of subspecialty. My employer technically can't refuse if I try, but it would make my actual working conditions (and pay) very unattractive. After all the hard work and sacrifice I'm not about to give that up.

Basically my advice is absolutely don't quit a career, be it surgery or something else, but you have some introspection and serious conversations ahead of you.

There are tons of happy children in childcare 7:45am-6pm every day. A great nanny is worth the weight in gold.

2 year olds are demanding, you have a demanding job. Of course you feel stretched thin. But I think most parents of little children do. Regardless of their job. Regardless of SAHM or not.

I have worked full time since my DC were 2 and 4 (now 6 and 8). I am not cut out to be a SAHM. I found it relentless boring and repetitive and because of that felt like a complete failure as a mother. Wasn’t I supposed to feel happy to be at home with the kids?

I jumped at the great job. DH went part time. We then moved abroad and I’m the sole earner. We have kind of realized that it’s very difficult for us both to accelerate our careers at the same time. Mine went on the back burner with 2 mat leaves and PT in between, now his is on the back-burner.

I’ve felt guilty about working, about enjoying working, about knowing that this is a better set-up than me being at home. But I feel less of a failure like this, than I would if were at home the whole time.

The mum guilt is never-ending regardless of what you do.

In all honesty, it sounds like you’re giving up a lot. I agree that PT can be the worst if both worlds but if you and your husband could both do 80% this could help.

Can you take a couple of days off here and there to recharge a bit if you’re not using it for holidays?

Sorry my post is a bit jumbled. In short - I think you have other options, you just need to find them!

I hear it are to say stop work. You have put in a lot and it’s valuable.

I hesitate to say stop

Rather

It's so hard and sometimes working part time is worse than full time as you feel so stretched in every direction and like you aren't doing anything well. You also don't have the financial advantage of working full time.

I agree that finding a decent nanny will help hugely.

Please don't sacrifice your career for your husband to progress his. There is some good advice on this thread about potential options within medicine, about less stressful routes.

There is a real risk that if you gave it up, you will regret it and it could really build resentment in your marriage, it's already falling on you to sort this out. You must be driven and worked really hard to have got to this point and when they do need you less, you may wish you'd 'kept your hand in'.

It makes me angry that brilliant women like you are put into his position and feel like this.

Also - the part time work in surgery thing...

It's interesting that basically all surgeons are encouraged to do a PhD during their training. That's 3 years out of full time operating and no one really makes a big deal of it as long as you're picking up some locums and maybe the odd list on a day off. But dare to take a year mat leave or drop to part time and suddenly you're losing your skills?

OH and I have discussed this in the past and in his words (as a male surgeon) it's "anti-women anti-family bullshit"

He also took 2 months shared parental leave after DD was born and I went back to work and his TPD tried to tell him he "wasn't allowed". He informed her otherwise.

As you will be well aware these insidious sexist attitudes are alive and well in surgery and I can only imagine how hard it must be not to internalise them

I wouldn't quit OP. My DC is now older and I am redundant to them. Can you get in an au pair to manage the childcare issue?

I live in Manchester and know several families where one or both are medics and the medics work part time. They still are comparatively loaded have big houses in nice areas. I would consider moving.

Your dh needs to go PT as soon as he is qualified. Then you ramp up the hours til you qualify.

Only once you are both qualified Then decide who and what your family will look like.

Don't quit! Transfer to GP and do it part time. Yes there is still training but I would try and see it through a different lens. You will still be a doctor and keep your career. A friend of mine is a trainee GP and she had her first baby in her 4th year of university. And her second during her GP training. She works 60% of the time and if I can be honest, isn't stressed out at all. Sometimes she might go over a week with no shift due to the way her hours work. The only irregular hours were when she did her rotation in A&E but now that that is done she is back to regular hours. This isn't an all or nothing situation - you have other options and are dismissing them out of hand. Yes it will take longer to qualify but so what?

Can you take a sabbatical for a couple of years then resume your career?
Put your aspirations on hold and be a full-time mum until the youngest is in school. Relocate to somewhere bigger with a garden. Go on cheap camping holidays.
Whatever you decide, make sure it is what you want and not what you think you should do.

I gave up my big career 6 years ago and don’t regret it in the slightest. Those saying children don’t need you as they got older are not necessarily correct. My DC are 14 and 11 now.

I think it comes down to which you value the most and which will make you happy. I didn’t love my job (I don’t love parenting either!) but I couldn’t deal with the stress of childcare and the guilt.

It’s such a personal decision though, there isn’t a right answer that’s the same for everyone.

I was offered my dream job when my dc were the age that yours are now. I turned it down precisely because I wanted to be able to spend time with them while they were young, and I have remained in my previous job which I don't love, but it offers a good balance of responsibility and flexibility. That was 4 years ago and I know I made the right decision for us, but that's not to say I don't regret being unable to take up that opportunity.

One thing that jumped out from your op was that your parents used to help but are unable to due to covid. That may change at some point? I would take the temporary pause in your situation, if that is possible. So many parents are missing a big part of their support network right now, but it may not be forever.

He is nearly finished so he can't go part time- although he's allowed, it would have a negative impact on his career prospects (there is still quite a lot of sexism about this in medicine).

So your husband CAN go part time. He’s just choosing not to as it will have a negative impact on his career prospects. Yet he’s presumably happy for you to give up your career completely? You’ve done the part time already to enable him to progress his career when the children were small. It’s his turn to make sacrifices for the next few years.

^^ this. Totally this

How far into your training are you? I'm a haematology reg just gone back off maternity leave and due to go off again in November so I know its hard but I think medicine does lend itself to being LTFT better than surgery does. Are you LTFT now?
I dont think there's a right or wrong answer, but would you regret giving up your training number? Is there an option of side stepping into a speciality doctor role which might be a bit more predictable in terms of hours etc (although don't know if can then resume training)?
Just my thoughts and ramblings. Are you a member of PGMUK on Facebook? You'll definitely get some good advice there.

The one thing I know is that, at the end, you won’t look back and smile fondly remembering the long hours working. You will look back and smile at the happy times spent with loved ones and your children.

I’m not saying quit, but I am saying change something so that you & your children have something to smile about when you look back.

If you’re smart enough to become a doctor, you’ve got the ability to find a solution. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. Change something.