AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

[doctormumoftwo]

I am thinking of leaving my job and I desperately need advice from other people who may have been in my position. I have two children who are 2 and 6. I work as a junior doctor/surgeon and am halfway through my training/exams. My DH is a full time a doctor. I love my job but it is very stressful. We could get by on DH salary alone but it would mean a big change in lifestyle (no holidays etc). I acknowledge I am very lucky to be in this position. I have been part time since I started but I am falling behind on my surgery and I have realised I can't continue part time as I need more surgical experience to gain competency. I also have final exams to take which means many hours of revision. I will be working flat out for the next 5 years minimum (nights, weekends, exams etc). Due to COVID our parents can not longer help regularly. It will be less stressful (but still demanding) as a consultant. DH cannot go part time to help. Despite the long hours we work, we can't afford private school, we live in a small flat with no garden. We will have to put the kids in school/nursery from 0745 - 6pm 5 days a week, or have a nanny for >50hrs for us to both work. My child's school is not great, there is not much community outside the school. My heart breaks for them, especially the 2 year old. I feel like I am sacrificing their childhood for my career. I have worked so hard to get where I am, invested money, time and incredible effort, but it feels like the demands of my job are just not compatible with being a decent mother. I don't know what to do. Our part time nanny recently quit handed in her notice. My child's reading is falling behind and they always ask me to play but I don't have the time to give them. I am thinking of giving up work and being a mum. I feel so guilty to continue leaving them for so many hours. I don't think a part time solution is going to work any longer because of the surgery, as I am falling behind and I spend many of my unpaid days off at work 'catching up'. I enjoy my job but I am incredibly stressed and sad about the toll it is taking on us all- that I know will not end for many more years. What should I do?

Sounds to me like you need support from your DH. It's not fair for it all to be on you. That's not an equal partnership.

I would give it up to be with the kids, and I say that as someone who is definitely not a super mum maternal type. I just think you would have so many regrets about not having the time with them and you sound so sad and stressed already. But at the same time, I would insist in moving out of the city to live somewhere cheaper where you could afford a nicer house with a garden so that your quality of life is better because it sounds like that is making you miserable too.

Before I even opened this I reckoned you were going to be a junior doctor. Are you in MMM or PMGUK? You will get lots of advice there from women doctors in the same position. There is a really good LTFT group also. My OH is a surg trainee and I'm in another specialty and we make it work by both working 80%.
Personally I wouldn't give up as it gets SO much better once you CCT - more autonomy and proper sessional working.

We can manage with nursery as I do NROC and have pretty stable hours (non acute specialty) but if I was a surgical reg or in something like obgyn or EM too then we would definitely get a nanny. This is just a shit crunch time - small kids and the miserable bit of your career.

Women in surgery are so important and you're doing a brilliant thing. I'm pretty sure there is a surgeon mums group for support too. You're v welcome to PM me, good luck

I think this is a difficult one especially in the current climate.

I quit my job when I became a SAHM eighteen years ago. I don’t regret being there for DS for one second, however I decided to return to work when he was eight and when we’d realised we couldn’t have any more DC, and i found it impossible. For me things are slightly different in that I have a disability so the numbers of jobs are less, i also got divorced when DS was ten so no longer had my DH’s income to rely on. but ten years, and admittedly a serious illness which took me out of the game for three years, later and I have still been unable to find work.

And now I am in a position where given the current climate and the ever increasing number of people who are unemployed, I don’t believe I am ever going to be able to find a job.

Being a surgeon isn’t just your average office job or even career. For most people being a surgeon is as much a vocation as a job, and unless you hate doing it, I believe you would regret giving it up. I also sympathise with your DH, because essentially saying he should go part time means two people giving up careers for the sake of a couple of years, careers where you would both be left behind.

For people saying OP should commute, that is far more difficult in a job where you’re working nights/having to be on call. You can’t live an hour away if you’re on call overnight and have to get there relatively quickly, that would likely mean having to stay at the hospital instead and not seeing children at all on those days so definitely wouldn’t make things easier.

Add into the equation the current climate we’re in. I think becoming a SAHM is a dangerous road to go down at the moment, because the chances of getting back into work are going to be that much less given we’re in more of an employer’s market than ever before and jobs are going to be less with more applicants, and employers are even more likely to choose those with more current experience.

Only you can decide, but your children will only ever be children for a few years, and while on the one hand you don’t want to miss these years, on the other hand where do you see yourself when they’ve left home and your DH is a consultant and you’ve been a SAHM for eighteen years with no current experience or training.

Don’t quit. Being a working mother is incredibly hard. The pressure and guilt goes across the board and the burden is always the mothers.

You don’t know what the future will bring and honestly for many many mothers the once the novelty of being a SAHM has work off it’s not a fulfilling as you expect. Some people are made for stay at home parenting - some find it soul destroying, repetitive, mind numbing and also also a very dangerous place to be financially.

Don’t give up your career to save his unless it’s something your 100% wanting to do.

@AgentProvocateur

He is nearly finished so he can't go part time- although he's allowed, it would have a negative impact on his career prospects (there is still quite a lot of sexism about this in medicine).

So your husband CAN go part time. He’s just choosing not to as it will have a negative impact on his career prospects. Yet he’s presumably happy for you to give up your career completely? You’ve done the part time already to enable him to progress his career when the children were small. It’s his turn to make sacrifices for the next few years.

OP, You sound great but tired.

I think it is very poor that all the sacrifices have to be made by you.
The sexism isn't just in medicine, it's alive and well in your marriage.

If you were my daughter I would be terrified at the thought that you were giving up a career that you have worked so hard for because you are feeling like a single parent.

I certainly would be telling you to get a nanny in and push through.

I wouldn't want you to be depending on a man who would see you sacrifice your career.
Not the actions of a good man that really has your back.

You are too tired to see this.

You need,
I think a good nanny to see you through and support you through these years.

Also, a husband who needs to step up rather than be someone who is solely focused on his career.

I would hate for you to be reliant on your husband financially, having given up everything.

I think you will bitterly regret giving all you have worked for, for your children, and it won't take many years to feel that bitter regret.

Oh OP, what a tough situation for you.

After my first son I changed jobs because remaining in it meant my son would have been in childcare 9-5pm for four days and even that was too much for me.

I have two children now, work 25 hours a week and it’s wonderful. I feel like my home and my children are my life and my job is just something I do two times a week. My eldest son is 6 and four days a week I get to take him to school, pick him up from school, go to the assemblies, presentations, go into class with him to do art lessons and maths lessons etc and it means so much to him.

My youngest has just turned three and in alignment with him now being entitled to 30 hours childcare I have taken up a university I can primarily do two days a week from home in order to retrain for something that will be even more family friendly than my current job does.

There is nothing wrong with feeling guilty for not seeing your children - it’s completely normal and it’s only right we should miss our children if we aren’t spending much time with them.

My mom worked full time when I was younger and even now, aged 36, I remember how much I wished she’d been around more. Obviously I’m not scarred by her not being a daily prevalent person in my life but that doesn’t mean it didn’t matter to me at the time.

You have my sympathy

Think about your life when your children have flown the nest. What do you see yourself doing? What kind of job would you want to/be able to do? Or would you be happy being a housewife?
I think that's the crucial aspect. Because from what I've seen the regret about giving up your job sets in when the kids need you less.

I wouldn’t quit either. You are an amazing, clever, talented woman that has achieved so much. You have come this far and giving it up may make you feel unfulfilled, invisible, resentful & disappointed, if not now in 5 or more years.

There must be a compromise.

I agree with fancyminion, it sounds like you're making a decision based on your current set of circumstances. I work full time as does my dh. Long hours. Luckily for me now i get to wfh but that only happened when the dcs were already 6,4 and 2, so we had a good 6 years of the scrambling around every morning, running out the door to nurseries, military routines to enable it.

My dh would also be delighted if i hadn't pursued my career. What's not to love about having even less of the mental load to carry and barely any of the physical load? It's selfish and there seems to be no emotional intelligence in that position that we as women and mothers would maybe also like our careers facilitated. Who'd have thought!!?

In your position, I'd probably give myself 6 months. It's not long and much could have changed my then. I'd use it to consider different routes within medicine but also just to "be". If you've promised yourself you can jack it all in in 6 months if you really hate carrying on then that takes the pressure off somewhat. Look for a new nanny, settle her in, get Christmas and the new year out of the way and come at it fresh.

Another one here who doesn't understand why your DH isn't having to make these difficult decisions. They're his kids too. If he can go part time then I don't see why he shouldn't. I don't know why you're worrying about him facing sexism at work when it's you who is expected to do the good wife/mother thing and quit your job.

Sounds to me like you're being a bit shafted on this.

I left my career to care for a parent and then to have children.

I love that I'm not missing out on precious time with my children. We are a very happy and relaxed family with very little stress.

More money and the prestige of a career could never compare to the joy I get from getting to raise them myself.

@tara66

If I was being operated on I would rather not have a surgeon in your position. I have never considered or knew that surgeons had this predicament. I find it alarming.

@tara66 what on Earth do you mean? You realise surgeons are human?

I have a big job, and was exhausted, planning to jack it in and be home with my kids when it turns out that my marriage was over.

If I'd quit, it would have been fairly devastating, as starting again would be impossible as a single parent, and financially it would have been so hard.

I have surgeons in the family, and finally can't see it working without a full time nanny and an acceptance all round of a different type of parenting. Have you looked at other specialties? Or would your DH? Shouldn't always have to be the woman. Alternatively there are other jobs in management or in pharmaceuticals for example where your medical training will be extremely useful, but without requiring the same type of hours and on call.

Last wanted to agree with others that good childcare is key to anyone working longer hours. A full time nanny is a better use of money than a private school would ever be, in my experience - the early years are so important and the right person gives the children more stability, helps you with things like cooking dinner and sorting all the kids washing, and will also be able to do things like reading

Am I the only person here who thinks it's crazy to chuck away a career with lifelong financial independence for a man that might not be around in ten years' time?

It's not doing it for the children, it's doing it so he doesn't have to trouble himself with them.

Stick it out. That way, you wont be dependent upon a good lawyer getting a fair maintenance arrangement if it goes tits up.

You cannot get the time back with your kids, they don't care about money or how successful you are all they just want you

I would quit and see if I could start over once they were teenagers.

Can you continue part time but in another specialism? GP rather than surgical say?
I think it is always good to retain your career if you can- you have no idea what the future holds and it is best to have the potential to be economically independent.
Having said that, my husband died when my kids were young and I had to give my job up to look after them. They're older now and we talk often about me going back to work- how we could have a car and holidays and so on, if I did, but we all prefer me being at home and being there for/ with them-- whilst being a bit broke....
I wish there was more of a half way house but if I work part time, I just lose credits/ allowances. I volunteer in school and a charity shop to make a contribution and get some 'job' satisfaction. I know I will never, on my death bed, say I wish I had worked more and spent less time with my kids- but a balance that is financially worthwhile would be good!!

What a difficult predicament to be in! I really feel for you. I’m a GP but was fortunate to complete my training full time before I went on to have children. I’ve always been ambitious but as soon as the firstborn came along, I knew I’d put them first. I’ve stayed working 2.5 days per week, but these are long days (8am-7pm) as a GP partner and we’ve managed with a non medic husband who worked 4 days a week initially and local grandparents supporting, as well as nursery and then wrap around care at school. I now feel I get plenty of time with my children and they feel well supported, but it’s hardest before they both start school. Sometimes I wish I could work even fewer hours but we need the money and I’d get bored when they’re at school .

I have medic friends who are married to medics in hospital specialties - some manage with live in au pairs/nannies, one of the Consultant husbands negotiated working from home one day a week which helped the childcare situation...

I don’t know any surgeons though.. it’s not the most family friendly specialty. It’s a very personal decision given everything we put in to get into medicine and our chosen speciality. In your position, personally I would look to seeking advice from fellow female surgeons and see if you can access some mentoring on careers. I’d see if your husband could negotiate altered hours to help at home but personally I’d do all I could to be around for the children the next 5-10 years...But otherwise you need to look at better paid support at home eg nanny/cleaner/tutor.

I should of added I've quoted my job as a engineer and gone part time in a school 10 hours a week so I can be there for our kids 4/6 years old, I don't regret it at all.

You’ve worked so so hard - please don’t give up. Can you change specialty as I imagine surgery is one of the most challenging disciplines of medicine?

You said that your DH is allowed to go part-time, but also can’t? If he’s allowed then he can. Get some full time help with the children. Also, why is it not possible to move away from the city?

OP - please post about this on PMG UK (on Facebook), you’ll get far more tailored advice. I think you need a nanny and some support from surgeons who have done it FT.

You will regret it. As you said, you have worked so hard. Being financially dependant will reduce your choices in life even further down the line, and you will swap misery now, for greater misery later. Kids grow up faster than you think.

I gave up work to do the best thing for the children, and I ended up feeling trapped and miserable. I went back to full time work, at first it was hard, but the key to me really being happy about my decision was when we finally got amazing childcare. If you get a great nanny, who can read with the kids etc. you will not feel so about going to work because you will know they are being well looked after. Our after school nanny cooks the kids better meals than I would cook them and has more patience helping with their homework! (I did feel guilty when our childcare was not working out and kids were not happy) Don't skimp on the childcare, it is only for a few years, and it is a cost to wear to improve your career prospects, and keep up your pension contributions, so I will pay off in the long run. If you get a nanny and they are good, treat them well.

I don't really know about medicine and how difficult it is to change specialities, but my son had juvenile arthritis, and the rheumies seem to work office hours and always appear quite relaxed - looked like quite a good job!

Hang in there, and try and negotiate with your husband to share the load, my OH is 5 years older than me, and I fell into the trap my career was less important because he earned more (of course, he was 5 years older, 5 years more work experience and there is still a gender pay gap!) Don't sell yourself short.

I’m sure you already know this. but you’ll get lots of replies saying quit and return in a few years. This will be nigh on impossible so if you do quit make sure it’s 100% what you want.

Also those suggesting switch to GP, I wouldn’t unless you’d really want to. GP training as you know is 3 years full time but can easily be longer if working part time including the hospital jobs for at least 18 months of that f/t. GP itself can be equally rewarding and frustrating. The hours are long, the demands endless and at times the job is thankless. Having said that, it’s the same as most of medicine I guess. And there are more options to have a portfolio career.

I just like to add, I find it concerning your husband is not supporting you in fulfilling your career. If it's solely on you to sort out childcare and to just be a SAHM then you are stuck in a corner.

I know some women will roll their eyes "it never happen to me!" But being financially independent is freeing. I would worry about giving up a career to become a SAHM with no qualifications. Surely will lead to resentment in years to come?