AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

[doctormumoftwo]

I am thinking of leaving my job and I desperately need advice from other people who may have been in my position. I have two children who are 2 and 6. I work as a junior doctor/surgeon and am halfway through my training/exams. My DH is a full time a doctor. I love my job but it is very stressful. We could get by on DH salary alone but it would mean a big change in lifestyle (no holidays etc). I acknowledge I am very lucky to be in this position. I have been part time since I started but I am falling behind on my surgery and I have realised I can't continue part time as I need more surgical experience to gain competency. I also have final exams to take which means many hours of revision. I will be working flat out for the next 5 years minimum (nights, weekends, exams etc). Due to COVID our parents can not longer help regularly. It will be less stressful (but still demanding) as a consultant. DH cannot go part time to help. Despite the long hours we work, we can't afford private school, we live in a small flat with no garden. We will have to put the kids in school/nursery from 0745 - 6pm 5 days a week, or have a nanny for >50hrs for us to both work. My child's school is not great, there is not much community outside the school. My heart breaks for them, especially the 2 year old. I feel like I am sacrificing their childhood for my career. I have worked so hard to get where I am, invested money, time and incredible effort, but it feels like the demands of my job are just not compatible with being a decent mother. I don't know what to do. Our part time nanny recently quit handed in her notice. My child's reading is falling behind and they always ask me to play but I don't have the time to give them. I am thinking of giving up work and being a mum. I feel so guilty to continue leaving them for so many hours. I don't think a part time solution is going to work any longer because of the surgery, as I am falling behind and I spend many of my unpaid days off at work 'catching up'. I enjoy my job but I am incredibly stressed and sad about the toll it is taking on us all- that I know will not end for many more years. What should I do?

We certainly do. But I’m still surprised by how many women on this thread still, in 2020, think an intelligent woman should give up their career, to look after children or get a nice little job for pin money.

The legislation is there to enable couples to have a better balance than at any previous time in history...mums can now transfer some of their ML to the baby’s father. Any employee can request flexible working arrangements as a permanent thing too. The fact is, if people choose not to use these, we’re not going to see society progress towards men and women being on a more equal footing.

As a woman in my 50s it makes me despair really. Dh and I worked really hard to establish as good a balance as we could; both maintaining our careers while parenting our children and doing all the stuff involved in running a home. And this was at a time when the odds seemed stacked against us... no paternity leave, no transferable leave, no right for fathers to request part time or flexible hours...

I’m not saying it’s always easy to get the balance but by god it’s easier now than it ever had been before. But if people persist in acting as though the man’s career is more important and the woman should be doing a little Job for pin money then we might as well step back 70 years

I can see that the improvements would look amazing to someone who never had access to anything like it, but you overstate their importance. Maternity leave is only a small percentage of the period when childcare is needed, and it's extremely easy to refuse a flexible working request. The employer only has to make a business case why not, and this leaves them very wide ranging scope to deny. I say this as someone whose husband has worked part time and/or flexibly around childcare for years, so my household does walk the walk.

The transferable parental leave might only be a small proportion of time- but I believe using it makes a point that exceeds that. It’s about stating as a couple that you are equal parents and that the dad having 2 or 3 months as sole carer is good for him and good for the child. Likewise with flexible working. I agree that it’s not always easy to secure it, but my point is that if men request it as much as women, society is progressing further towards a point where everyone has a better balance.

At the moment, take up of shared parental leave is woeful, and many women still default to being the one to work part time or request Flexible working, while their husbands blithely carry on unchanged.

You're overstating the significance of something that is essentially toothless. Flexible working requests are primarily granted by employers who would've at least tried to be flexible before the existence of the legislation.

Now, more men actually working part time and flexibly would potentially make a huge difference, especially if it were over a longer period than the typical ML. I have a lot to say about the impact it had on my family unit too. But flexible working legislation and part time working arent necessarily connected, either. I have worked entirely part time since having DC and have made zero requests re flexible working legislation during that time.

I think you’re misunderstanding my point! I’m not talking about how likely employers are to agree to p/t hours or FW requests. I’m saying that for as long as it’s women (not men) who default to making the requests for p/t or FW, society will never progress. Clearly some employers do facilitate p/t or FW because a lot of people do work p/t ... the point is, it’s overwhelmingly women, not men.

No, I think you're misunderstanding mine. Which is that flexible working legislation is toothless, requests are really easy to refuse and if you want to advance the argument you are, it is much better left out.

My point is that it is predominantly women not men who work p/t, prioritise their DH’s career over their own, and generally play second fiddle in terms of career. Society is not going to progress towards a better balance for all while that’s the norm.

Although as tax payers pay for it doctors may get flexible working, in most other jobs there is no flexible working right. You can ask and they in most cases lawfully can say not.

We certainly (lawyer - I, teacher him) even 30 years ago were able to prioritise my career over his and indeed agreed that before we married.

I agree Caelano. I will be at least 20 years older than the OP and I was saddened by her statement her DH couldn't go part time because it would be bad for his career - which meant she had to forgo hers completely. It feels like feminism hasn't moved on in many respects since my children were young, despite the huge increase in maternity leave and introduction of paternity leave. The issue is the internalised messages that it seems women and men have absorbed and don't question. So a trainee surgeon can seriously be advised to get a mummy friendly shop job, to ensure a man is not inconvenienced in the slightest by having children.

It is so strange, we raise girls to do well academically, where they outperform boys, then in the work place there is a total volte-face. The man's job is king and everyone in the family has to be subservient to that. How has that bit of 1950s think been so hard to dislodge?

@TheNavigator agree, it astonishes me that girls outperform boys at practically every level of education, yet many people seem to internalise this concept that they should take a back seat when it comes to their career. I’ve also never yet any woman who doesnt want her daughter to do well at school and university and to aim high - yet at some point this falls apart for too many women.

I could understand it more back in the day when the options weren’t there for women. My mum is as bright and capable as my dad, but couldn’t have a career because there was no regulated childcare back when we were small- no day nurseries or registered childminders. Even when I had my kids, it was relatively tough because it was flipping hard returning to work With a 12 week old baby who was still bf. Nowadays ML is long enough that your child can comfortably be weaned and toddling around before you need to return to work (though of course many women still choose to bf for comfort far beyond this.) my point is that if women don’t take advantage of what’s available to them now, which are far better maternity rights Than ever before, when will we ever see a shift in attitudes?

my point is that if women don’t take advantage of what’s available to them now, which are far better maternity rights Than ever before, when will we ever see a shift in attitudes?

When the rights become parental rights, with a part of it 'use it or lose it' for dads. It's so easy to become the 'default parent' when you're home for a year and have figured out all your baby's needs by trial and error. Meanwhile the new dad has progressed in his career unencumbered and simply 'can't' take time off or work flexibly, even though surprisingly, women doing the exact same job seem to be able to.

@KatharinaRosalie interesting point... I guess one advantage of shorter ML was that although it was damn hard work returning to work with a 12 week old bf baby, at least it meant the two of us both getting stuck in to all the practicalities early on. Dh and I made sure we shared drop off and pick ups at the childminder, and tbh i didn’t feel out of the loop returning to the workplace... it was more like some extended annual leave rather than Switching to a totally different way of life for a year.

@TheNavigator and @Caelano, I couldn’t agree more with you both

If your finishing work by 6 Mon to Fri I wouldn't worry about it. You only have one life and you have to live no regrets. Your husband doesn't have to give up his career so why should you?
If you want to be a full time mum then do it but not out of guilt. You will regret it.

Hi, I’m an ODP so totally get what you are talking about. My husband was in training up until recently and has now got a consultant post which has allowed me to reduce my hours for childcare. We moved from a small flat in London and now have a house with a garden, husband still commutes to London. It does get easier as children get older, I promise. Just please please don’t give up on what you have already achieved, I know how hard you have already worked! Could you not do part time, keeping in your weekends/nights/on calls working around your husbands shifts?? I know that out of hours will be more beneficial for your training. Good luck and stick at it!!

Why should the OP work around her husband's shifts? Why shouldn't he work around her to o enable her to finish her training. She is just as important, why relegate her to supporting act?

here is my perspective having been a child with a mum who's a doctor - growing up child care was outsourced to friends / sahm which we didn't mind as kids, i can't remember finding that a problem. What I DO remember is the pride I felt seeing my mums practice, all the medical tools and her being in charge. Both myself as well as sisters are in big jobs we love now and I think it is linked to my DM being this role model.

Thanks for the update @doctormumoftwo. You are doing an excellent job. Sounds like your DH is too. He doesn't see the need to go part time because he sees you doing a stellar job of juggling. But he's wrong, he does need to go part time when he can, and your kids do need one parent to be there some of the time, even with a nanny. And it's his turn. That's what it means having kids! You deserve the 100% timetable for a while to get the thing done. Good luck with nanny, I know this is what is going to turn your life around so put all your energy into getting that just right (easier said than done I know!). On my opinion, gardens are overrated.... Get a nanny who takes them to the park every day, they prefer that anyway!!! Good luck!!

Hi there,
I just saw the message that was deleted with another doctor in the same position as I was, she asked about how it all went in the end. I thought it would be useful to update. I did not give up work and just kept going. Good or bad, I am glad I stuck with it.

• I have passed all my exams and only have a couple more years left of training
• We no longer need a nanny as we do after school clubs and luckily my husband is now a consultant and in a position where he can collect 3-4 days a week.
• With no nanny/nursery, we can afford a bigger mortgage and moved to a nicer area/house.
• My kids are now 6 and 9 and really happy in school, well-adjusted with lots of friends, playdates etc
• I work 80% and can collect then at least one day a week
• Although work is incredibly tough (NHS is brutal for everyone) I feel a huge sense of purpose, passion and commitment to my chosen speciality. I genuinely find it interesting and care about my patients. Work is so much better now the exams are out of the way, a weight has been lifted.
• I am happy to be earning money. It means I can equally contribute to the bills and we can afford a better quality of life.

I think the main message here is - it gets easier. It really does. Those years when the kids were little are the hardest. But it is not like that forever. They need me much less now and also understand that I have to work to pay the bills, and are proud of what I do - it wasn't like that when they were 2 and 5, I felt so guilty. I remember bursting into tears on the tube (no lunch break multi-site work) when seeing mums out with their little ones. I don't have that guilt any more. Of course they still need me, but without exams and at 60-80% I have enough time to give them quality time.

I hope this helps. I remember how lost and sad and broken I felt when I wrote that post all those years ago, at 4am when I couldn't sleep. I am a world away from that now. Thank you to all the people who helped me through that time via this post and DM-d me personally offering support. Good luck to anyone in this situation, whatever decision you end up making.

That's such a positive update. I'm so pleased for you!

Thanks for the update @doctormumoftwo . It’s brilliant what you and your DH have achieved as a team.
It shouldn’t be that hard for so long but it is and I totally understand why others in your profession end up choosing a different path.

What a great update @doctormumoftwo and well done for keeping going! You won't regret it as the children get older.

As a fellow dr (physician not surgeon), I am so glad to hear this. Best of luck with the final part of training.