Would you split over this? AIBU not to?

[rainbowiris]

Long time lurker but first time poster so be a bit gentle with me please! Sorry this ended up being a bit long but I'd appreciate any advice.

DH and I generally have a good relationship, get on well, still plenty to talk about even 17 years in. Two teenage DC, we have our ups and downs but generally our relationship is pretty solid. However, he is completely shit with money. We both have ok-paid jobs now although I earn more than him and always have (we actually do the same job now though). When I met him, he had a number of debts (already with collection agents etc), which I helped him to sort out and pay off. He has since, a number of times over the years we've been together, periodically (probably about 4 times) run up credit card debts which we've ended up getting loans to pay off. Not huge amounts each time, a couple of thousand - enough for me to be really angry but not divorce him over it if that makes sense. I ended up taking complete control of the finances after we'd been together a few years as it became obvious he wasn't going to be able to manage things like leaving enough money in to cover direct debits, and he willingly gets his wage paid into the joint account, with me then transferring him back his half of whatever's left after everything's paid out.

Each time the credit card thing happened he promised it will never happen again and for a while it's always ok, apart from having debts to pay off, which sent us into a bit of a debt spiral each month and ending up using our joint credit card more than we should. A couple of years ago we moved to a different area which led to a couple of years of living frugally as moving was an expensive business but we had to do it at that point for various school/job related reasons. Our financial situation eased up this summer when we were able to switch to a cheaper mortgage deal and refinanced our debts with a clear plan to have everything paid off within five years, this new financial situation also freeing us up from the cycle of being in debt each month as we have more money to live on. It took me a long time of researching financial options and in general I spend a lot of time each month sorting the money out. I felt like a huge weight was lifted when everything had got sorted and there was actually enough money to pay for everything each month. We get about £75 each left to buy whatever we want with, which I know isn't loads but literally everything else is paid for and we have money in the joint account that can be used too (just requires a bit more discussion before an expensive purchase) so I manage fine with this amount.

Tonight I got home, picked up the post off my seat on the sofa and opened it, inadvertently opening a letter addressed to DH (it looked like a bill, and as I deal with all bills I didn't even check whose name was on the front). It was a letter from PayPal credit saying he's defaulted on a payment. He owes them £1700.

I asked him straight away, he said sorry and he's not spent it on anything much, just bits and bats (he cycles so buys bike bits a lot), and he's also got at least £500 on another card that he told me he'd got rid of.

Extra info: he had a bit of a shit childhood, ended up being brought up mainly by paternal grandparents. His dad would swan in every so often and take him out shopping. I think this has created some issues for him, he thinks credit cards are free money and that he can just buy what he likes when he likes. He can't seem to make the association that having these debts creates this ridiculous cycle of not being able to afford anything as we spend so much paying them back! He doesn't like waiting to buy things although will spend time researching to get the best deal in things he wants to buy, just doesn't like to wait to save up.

Aside from money, he's a good husband, great dad. Never looks at other women, mostly pretty thoughtful, does his share round the house. I don't want to divorce him but I'm really struggling to get past the fact he's lied AGAIN about this and put us up shit creek again with money, just when we'd got sorted. Part of me wants to kill him/kick him out/divorce him because he's had so many chances and if I keep bailing him out he'll keep doing it, part of me thinks it's not worth throwing a good relationship away over money, I'm 40 and not interested in starting again, I just want to settle down and enjoy what I've worked hard for, I can't afford to live here on my own and the kids need both parents.

AIBU to not kill him? What can I do? How do we pay off yet more money? I can't just leave him to it as he doesn't have enough left to pay it off himself. He's nearly 50 FFS, I thought we'd be sorted for money by now :(

This is financial abuse. Nobody cannot have peace of mind or choices in life if they are always worrying about paying off a partner's debts.

The children are going short just so he can have his bike bits, if the OP is having to use family money to sort it out.

My father did this to my mother, and my ex did it to me; running up bills and leaving the wife to face it all.

My mother put up with it because she didn't want the shame of debt collectors at the door. I eventually realised what was going on and kicked the ex out.

Every penny of the debts was his and I still don't know where it went as we had absolutely nothing to show for it.

This is grounds for divorce and the OP's DH needs to know that. Even the fact that she's thinking about it should rattle him.

Stop treating him like a child and have a discussion about what he needs because the current situation isn't working for him (or you).

He’s had plenty of time to stop behaving like a child and has not.

@ConquestEmpireHungerPlague

I think some therapy is what's needed.

This isn't about money. He's not necessarily 'thick', 'selfish' or a 'waster', or any of the other judgements that are being handed down. I reckon lots of the people here who think it's pathetic he can't get beyond habits forged in childhood are similarly mean about people who want to lose weight but can't seem to stop treating themselves to cake and chocolate - or perhaps they'd be more understanding of that because that's their vice, whereas this is someone else's and therefore contemptible.

He knows what he should be doing, but can't seem to get it right or stick to it. I agree that taking charge over and over again isn't working, but personally I would try to get to the bottom of what's causing this before divorcing a man I was otherwise happy with.

Well I don’t have an problem with cake or bike parts.

The reason it’s not ‘sticking’ is because he’s just carrying on regardless as his wife keeps bailing him out.

He’s not trying to stop buying, he’s just trying to hide it better from OP.

He is not a good husband and father. He is a lying deceitful shit. How is it fair that he gets hundreds of pounds to spend on himself every month while you only get £75?

And the only reason you found out about the latest debt is because you opened a letter by mistake. If you hadn't done that how long do you think it would have gone on for before you did find out? When the bailiffs turn up at the door?

He will never change, so you need to change your response to the way you deal with this latest debt. I'd make him sell his bloody bikes to pay them off.He needs to start taking responsibility for his debts and you need to stop enabling him and bailing him out with family money.

As a few posters have said, it is a good idea to divorce so you can disentangle yourself financially from him.

If you make sure the family home and any other assets are in your name, then any debts he runs up afterwards don't impact on you or your children.

@rainbowiris Could you tell him that he needs to sell something to pay the debts back? What would he say?

I expect his willingness to do this would be illuminating. If he regrets the spending, and he’s been buying things on the pretence of selling them on anyway, then he can double-down efforts and sell however many he needs for whatever price in the next week to make the money to clear the debts. If he makes a loss, this isn’t a good business model. Either way, the debts are paid.

If he’s expecting you to solve the problem and come up with a new plan to get him out of debt again, he’ll probably be a bit taken aback at the suggestion of him losing out, and unwilling to sell.... and that would also be pretty telling.

It’s a reasonable solution. Not one he’ll love, but you don’t love another £2300 on credit cards that you didn’t know about, either

I left my ex for exactly this. Although he was a compulsive liar and 4 years later still don't and never will find out what all the debts were for.
He did the same each time I found out he'd just be all over the top sorry and try to get me to take control even of his accounts which he dust scream at me about publicly later than I was controlling and "wouldn't let him have any money"

It was the lies I couldn't deal with Altho he lied about absolutely everything in his life even down to what he'd had for dinner if I wasn't home... so your DH sounds better than that but I agree with PP who say he will not changes so this is your life if you choose to continue to go along with it so you have to work out how you feel about this long term

Also, at some point as an adult you have to stop blaming shitty behaviour on your childhood. If you know you have unacceptable patterns of behaviour from childhood that damage the people you love, do something about them. It's not okay to just shrug your shoulders.

You will be putting up with his money issues the rest of your life if you stay, you need to ask yourself if you can do that.

He sounds like the perfect man/father.

I thought this was irony initially.

Wtaf.

This is do disrespectful and as someone said such a "fuck you" (how many times now?) to op.

So much unnecessary stress.

So much penny pinching for you and your kids you'd not otherwise had to have done.

He has been very selfish.

Have you said hes selling his bike(s) or do you not dare ask him to?

I feel so sorry for you @rainbowiris, scrimping and saving and for what?

Good husbands just don't do that.
He can be nice as pie and empty the dishwasher or do the laundry but he is absolutely disrespecting you and your efforts and apparently getting away with it.

And then he goes to his fucking cycle club? For real? Does he even have a clue how much he has fucked up? Any hint of an apology (meaningless or repetitive las I fear it might be).
He has deceived you and while betraying your trust has treated himself, who does that?

I guess at the end of the day it doesn't matter if loads of people wouldn't put up with this, it matters what you want for yourself, what lessons you want to pass on to your children, and how many last times there will be in the future?

@JenniferSantoro

I would absolutely split up over this. I would struggle to trust someone who behaved in this way. It’s not an easy decision to make though. Hope you’re ok 💐

I agree with this. He's not a good husband or father when he's splurging money away.

And I would end up resenting a partner where I had to be the adult all the time.

Add on the fact that he lied, despite knowing the hassle, etc he caused previously, and I could never trust him again.

He can't seem to make the association that having these debts creates this ridiculous cycle of not being able to afford anything as we spend so much paying them back!

Of course he can make the association. He just doesn't care, because you keep bailing him out, meaning he is depriving you and your DC in the process.

He's nearly 50. He's been an adult a long time. He should be acting like one.

Actions speak louder than words. He got credit and spent money again, lying in the process. That is so disrespectful towards you, that I think he just doesn't care about your feelings.

He needs help, there is a reason he is doing this.

I would be asking / insisting that he seeks help for whatever issues are causing him to exhibit this behaviour before it completely wrecks your marriage.

You taking control is not the answer, you’ve already taken control of basically all of the financial burden and you’ve gotten him out of his own mess multiple times.

He may be a good partner and a great dad but there is something going on in his psyche which needs addressing. Because until he does he won’t stop this mindless cycle of spending and lying and relying on you to resolve

I'd be insisting that get some bar work or a similar second job AND/OR selling his bike stuff to repay the debt.

OP would need legal advice, but divorce and living separately prob would probably the only ways to minimise OP’s financial liability for his current and future debts.

The al anon type approach comes to mind: you didn’t cause it, you can’t control or cure it. It’s for the person with the problem/causing problems for loved ones to take action (or not, and many sadly don’t - doesn’t seem hopeful in this case). You can only decide on things as regards you, and the DC.

"He loves shopping on eBay so I suspect it's a bike frame here, some wheels there - he's always got a plan going to build these bikes and sell them, just seems far better at the shopping for them bit than the selling them bit 🙄"

So he's got lots of bike bits? They need to be listed on eBay ASAP. None of this 'build' shit, just list them as parts, and sell them. Recoup what you can.

"Extra info: he had a bit of a shit childhood, ended up being brought up mainly by paternal grandparents. His dad would swan in every so often and take him out shopping. I think this has created some issues for him, he thinks credit cards are free money and that he can just buy what he likes when he likes. He can't seem to make the association that having these debts creates this ridiculous cycle of not being able to afford anything as we spend so much paying them back! He doesn't like waiting to buy things although will spend time researching to get the best deal in things he wants to buy, just doesn't like to wait to save up."

I think this needs to be addressed, or he will just keep looping through this behaviour. Some sort of counselling?

He had his first day at a new job today so I wasn't able to speak with him properly earlier. I wrote a long email to him today getting out how I felt and including some of the points raised in here, and telling him there is a very definite possibility that we will split up over this.

I've just got home now and we've had a bit of a talk. He's very apologetic, says he knows he's been an idiot, and understands if I want to end things, although he doesn't want that to happen. He's gone out to the garage to get on with listing the bikes and parts on eBay.

I downloaded his credit file from Experian and aside from the PayPal debt there's nothing further (and it looks like the other credit card balance is only at £150 so that can be got rid of sharpish).

I agree that he needs some sort of counselling or something or I have no doubt he will do this again.

I have a very deep rooted love for him, even with all this bullshit - I didn't have an easy time in my younger years either and he didn't write me off when I messed things up (and I made a right mess of things at one point and had to work hard to regain his trust). If he is prepared to try and sort this out and be proactive about getting help then I want to be able to trust him again, but that's totally gone at the moment. I guess I'll find out over the next few days whether he will work hard at it or not. He seems to understand he is on very shaky ground at the moment.

Thank you for all the responses, i think because we've both had bits of trauma in our past it can make us a bit blasé about situations - I deal with stuff by going in to problem solving mode and trying to fix things, he deals with things by sticking his head in the sand and hoping someone will come along and fix it. I can see that in situations like this that could be quite a toxic and enabling combination which I'd obviously not considered enough before. People are quite right that I shouldn't have to put up with being so disrespected, thank you for helping me to see that :)

Glad you've spoken to him op. I hope he really does change and get help and you get everything sorted

@rainbowiris But do keep this thread somehwere handy. So you can read back through it, should you need to!

good luck to you both.

Remember where your boundaries are and stick to them .

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]@rainbowiris But do keep this thread somehwere handy. So you can read back through it, should you need to![/quote]
It has given me the strength I needed to realise that other people really wouldn't put up with this kind of shit and I shouldn't either. I'm not ready yet to fully say it's over though. And the next few days will tell how proactive he's prepared to be this time to do something himself to sort it out, if he can't do that then I am seriously thinking about my future without him now, which is something I never thought I'd do :(

Good luck. If he sees you’re serious that might be the push he needs to get his act together.

Good to see your update @rainbowiris

I think what you've written sounds very balanced & sensible.

You know your own relationship & you make a very good point about the combination of some of your behaviours causing a potentially toxic challenge.

I do think it's relevant that:

1. The debt is manageable
2. He's proactively doing something to ameliorate it
3. He's engaging with you & not being defensive.

Good luck with your next steps. I agree with a PP that keeping this thread for further reflection is sensible.

💐💐💐

He needs to take ownership of this. Stop bailing him out.
He needs to sell whatever shite he’s bought to cover the debt. He’ll never learn if he doesn’t have to.