Would you split over this? AIBU not to?

[rainbowiris]

Long time lurker but first time poster so be a bit gentle with me please! Sorry this ended up being a bit long but I'd appreciate any advice.

DH and I generally have a good relationship, get on well, still plenty to talk about even 17 years in. Two teenage DC, we have our ups and downs but generally our relationship is pretty solid. However, he is completely shit with money. We both have ok-paid jobs now although I earn more than him and always have (we actually do the same job now though). When I met him, he had a number of debts (already with collection agents etc), which I helped him to sort out and pay off. He has since, a number of times over the years we've been together, periodically (probably about 4 times) run up credit card debts which we've ended up getting loans to pay off. Not huge amounts each time, a couple of thousand - enough for me to be really angry but not divorce him over it if that makes sense. I ended up taking complete control of the finances after we'd been together a few years as it became obvious he wasn't going to be able to manage things like leaving enough money in to cover direct debits, and he willingly gets his wage paid into the joint account, with me then transferring him back his half of whatever's left after everything's paid out.

Each time the credit card thing happened he promised it will never happen again and for a while it's always ok, apart from having debts to pay off, which sent us into a bit of a debt spiral each month and ending up using our joint credit card more than we should. A couple of years ago we moved to a different area which led to a couple of years of living frugally as moving was an expensive business but we had to do it at that point for various school/job related reasons. Our financial situation eased up this summer when we were able to switch to a cheaper mortgage deal and refinanced our debts with a clear plan to have everything paid off within five years, this new financial situation also freeing us up from the cycle of being in debt each month as we have more money to live on. It took me a long time of researching financial options and in general I spend a lot of time each month sorting the money out. I felt like a huge weight was lifted when everything had got sorted and there was actually enough money to pay for everything each month. We get about £75 each left to buy whatever we want with, which I know isn't loads but literally everything else is paid for and we have money in the joint account that can be used too (just requires a bit more discussion before an expensive purchase) so I manage fine with this amount.

Tonight I got home, picked up the post off my seat on the sofa and opened it, inadvertently opening a letter addressed to DH (it looked like a bill, and as I deal with all bills I didn't even check whose name was on the front). It was a letter from PayPal credit saying he's defaulted on a payment. He owes them £1700.

I asked him straight away, he said sorry and he's not spent it on anything much, just bits and bats (he cycles so buys bike bits a lot), and he's also got at least £500 on another card that he told me he'd got rid of.

Extra info: he had a bit of a shit childhood, ended up being brought up mainly by paternal grandparents. His dad would swan in every so often and take him out shopping. I think this has created some issues for him, he thinks credit cards are free money and that he can just buy what he likes when he likes. He can't seem to make the association that having these debts creates this ridiculous cycle of not being able to afford anything as we spend so much paying them back! He doesn't like waiting to buy things although will spend time researching to get the best deal in things he wants to buy, just doesn't like to wait to save up.

Aside from money, he's a good husband, great dad. Never looks at other women, mostly pretty thoughtful, does his share round the house. I don't want to divorce him but I'm really struggling to get past the fact he's lied AGAIN about this and put us up shit creek again with money, just when we'd got sorted. Part of me wants to kill him/kick him out/divorce him because he's had so many chances and if I keep bailing him out he'll keep doing it, part of me thinks it's not worth throwing a good relationship away over money, I'm 40 and not interested in starting again, I just want to settle down and enjoy what I've worked hard for, I can't afford to live here on my own and the kids need both parents.

AIBU to not kill him? What can I do? How do we pay off yet more money? I can't just leave him to it as he doesn't have enough left to pay it off himself. He's nearly 50 FFS, I thought we'd be sorted for money by now :(

There's some advice on here that isn't strictly accurate, if the debts are in his name then they are not your responsibility (legally) except the joint mortgage.

I separated financially from my husband whilst continuing our relationship as I found it much easier to live like that, no joint cards, no joint debts, but he was much more engaged in paying it all off and he didn't then run up further debts. We did not have a joint mortgage at the time and I had no trouble getting my own mortgage and my credit rating remained good whilst he still trailed a few missed payments for a couple of years.

Your DH reminds me of my ex best friend, who was constantly in debt. In her case, she was a shopaholic, who was constantly spending money on clothes. She never learned her lesson. In the end, I stupidly lent her money to pay off her mortgage arrears; she said she would be selling up and would pay us back afterwards. She didn't, as the debts amounted to more than the value of her (two) properties. She just went bankrupt. Hence she's an ex friend.

This sounds like similarly addictive behaviour, and I'm sorry to say that your DH seems to be as much in denial as my ex friend was. She was bi-polar, I wouldn't be at all surprised if your DH has some kind of MH issue.

But MH issues are not an excuse, he should be getting himself help. As he hasn't done this (and doesn't seem willing to do so), that means that he really isn't a good husband or father.

Living with someone who constantly gets into debt like this and hides it is like living with someone with a gambling habit.

He’s using family money to indulge his spending habits, not directly but when the debts come to light it is family money which has to be used to pay it off. It’s the same as someone who is signed up to a gambling site or goes into the bookies every day and fritters away the family money.

Would you stay with a gambling addict who refused to change? Because if not, then think of getting into debt as the same thing. He’s gambling with the family’s money, he’s gambling with your lifestyles, he’s gambling with your credit rating, and all because he apparently can’t stop.

I absolutely get that a lot of people are dreadful with money. My almost eighteen year old was when he thought I was picking up the tab for everything he wanted to spend. But now he’s got his own job and his own money and suddenly the realisation has hit home what he was wanting to spend now that he has to put his hand in his own pocket to spend it.

There comes a time when everyone has to take responsibility for their own lives and when someone else can’t be responsible for them. And that time is now for your DH.

I understand not wanting to divorce him over this, but equally I can’t see a way of carrying on like this either.

He’s not shit with money - he’s selfish with money - he spends money on himself that he doesn’t have. And you all have to go through penury to pay off. It’s not the same thing.

I couldn't live like this.

He's not limited to £75 per month to spend - he's spending hundreds - you are limited to £75 per month to spend because you're paying off his constant spend of hundreds.

I don't pretend to know whether he's aware that he's actually spending all your money (present and future before it's even earned) but that's what he's doing because you bail him out over and over, sacrificing your own security and enjoyment to do it.

If he resents being broke because he has to bail himself out of his own mess for once, that's tough. If he doesn't bail himself out and it all gets worse for him, tough.

What you need to do, whether you stay with him or not, is get some legal advice about how it will all impact you. Who's responsible for the debts he runs up? Will it impact on your credit score? Can his creditors come after your house? etc.

Whether he sees it this way or not, he is treating you with incredible disrespect and lack of care by putting you on this position.

You should’ve left the moment you decided you need to control the finances.

You shouldn’t have to do this for him.

It’s difficult, because there’s lots to to be grateful for if he’s a good husband and father.

Is he really though or is OP wearing rose-tinted specs? How many men do you know with an obsessive hobby who are fully there for their family?

tell him that he needs to get a much better fucking job if he wants to spend like this. Tell him that you are seriously considering leaving

I don't think I could live like this. This level of selfishness would make him repulsive to me. He's spent every penny on himself. He hasn't taken out a loan so he could surprise you all with a holiday or treat the kids to a fun day out or you to a weekend away. You've had £75 a month for yourself, and he's had hundreds for himself.
He's kept it a secret because he knows he's in the wrong and he's done it because he knows you'll bail him out anyway. There have been no consequences for him. That's why he's swanned off now on his bike - it's a great relief to him that you've discovered his secret because he thinks you'll sort it for you again. No harm, no foul.
What has he suggested he does to make it up? Does he offer to sell anything? Is he taking a second job? Is he getting help for his childhood traumas?
I don't see the point in taking over finances because it's too easy for him to do it again on the sly. I wouldn't be able to trust him again.
He's stealing your future financial stability and depriving your children too.
He is far from a great father and husband and I think I would be looking for a divorce at this point. He isn't going to make any significant, permanent changes and I couldn't bring myself to be married to someone so selfish and has so little respect for me.

Why do you think it is good characteristics to lie, keep secrets, become deceitful?

As a mother do you think those are good traits to teach your teen children?

Aside from money, he's a good husband, great dad

Aside from cheating, he's a good husband, great dad
Aside from drinking, he's a good husband, great dad
Aside from the weed, he's a good husband, great dad
Aside from when hits me, he's a good husband, great dad
Repeat, repeat, repeat. time and again on here from various women Aside from when he does the thing that hurts our family, he's a good husband, great dad

OP his decisions are causing you immense stress, placing you at risk of losing your home, depriving your DC of opportunities in life and you never really know when the next knock at your front door could be a bailiff to take your possessions to cover his spending. You are sat at home on an internet forum asking strangers for advice and support and he is where? Off with his mates, at his hobby not a care in the world. The issue here is not the lying, money or debt the issue is that you clean up after him, by doing the heavy lifting, by depriving yourself and the DC and watching him like a hawk you are covering for his actions. How many people in real life know about what is going on with him, not many I would guess. You would be colluding with him to cover his issues to save him from shame and embarrassment. Nobody would think he was a good man if they saw him off on his jollies and they knew how you sacrificed and struggled and went without, they would think him selfish and cruel to his wife and DC. You need to really consider your future with this man, what happens in the worse case scenario if you become ill and unable to work, he has to carry the load even in the short term, manage the home and finances. In that situation how long before you no longer have a home, do you think he would really step up for you and the DC or would he sink you all for a few bits of eBay for his bike?

He sounds like a thick twat though to be honest.
Except he does know what he's doing.
He knows because he's closer to 50 than 5yo.
He knows because this is far from the first time he's put himself and, by his actions, his family in this position.
He knows because he lies by omission about new debt (£1700) on a new credit card and he lied in fact about an old credit card he said was paid off (£500).

He may even have felt a twinge of guilt each time, but that didn't stop him doing exactly what he wanted and then, effectively, lying every day onwards until his wife found him out - again. I wonder what other debts he is currently keeping to himself.

He clearly has no conscience as he keeps repeating the same actions - and was able to blithely go on his cycling trip with his friends, leaving her with the problem to solve yet again.

OP you've said you don't want to leave him. But you do need to protect yourself and your children not just for this latest incident, but for the future.

I think you should seek legal advice about the possibility of a "technical divorce" a PP mentioned up thread so that he could live with you but you would no longer be responsible for his debts.

I'm not sure, however, I'd want a man like this in my life, who takes so little responsibility - both as a husband and a father - in my life.

I wish you continued strength and hope for a calmer future. 🌹

@Halli2020

Sounds like he could be suffering with a mental illness because of his childhood, could potentially be a personality disorder or bipolar. Or along those lines.. I'm not a professional but it does seem psychological to me rather than him deliberately being an asshole.

Nonsense.

Sounds like he could be suffering with a mental illness because of his childhood, could potentially be a personality disorder or bipolar. Or along those lines.. I'm not a professional but it does seem psychological to me rather than him deliberately being an asshole

While I don’t agree with mentions of PD or BPD I was coming on to say that there could be a reason for his compulsive behaviour, for example ADHD. I’m not offering up an excuse for him or saying that everyone who is bad with money has a neurodiversity, but it might be a possible reason that is worth him (not you) investigating. ADHD is not just about hyperactive little boys, there are inattentive and/or compulsive types, very often displaying behaviour that is risky to self and is to do with how the adhd brain uses dopamine. It might do him good to take charge of understanding why he can’t control his spending. If there are reasons then there are ways of being helped with things like debt that take account of neuro-diversity.

It’s just a thought.

He's a liar and a thief. Would you put up with a friend stealing from you and lying to you or would you think that isn't how friends should behave?

It always amazes me when women have much lower bars for the men they live with than they do for their friends.

He's nearly 50 and you're treating him like a little boy. You're not even angry, just disappointed. And he cares so little about you that not only has he run up massive debt again on his hobbies, he went out cycling with his friends.

I think you both need relationship counselling if you want to stay in this relationship because the dynamics are really unhealthy.

Sounds like he could be suffering with a mental illness because of his childhood, could potentially be a personality disorder or bipolar. Or along those lines.. I'm not a professional but it does seem psychological to me rather than him deliberately being an asshole yawn. Given the sheer number of selfish twats talked about on this thread, and the way someone always trots out the he must be suffering from a mental illness line, all I can say is, mental illness must be off the scale and perhaps twat needs to be re-classified as a mental disorder.

So he gets to spend what he likes on whatever he wants, and you have to try to stick to £75 a month?! He really has no respect for you at all. What a horrible husband. If he wants expensive hobbies and lots of 'things' and can't manage with £75, then he'll have to earn more money. Can he get another job to pay back the debts? You don't have to split up if you divorce him you know. It could just mean your finances are separate. So you're not responsible for his selfishness.

I think the large disparity in replies is in part because of a lack of information about your finances in general. I think a lot of posters are assuming you don't have 2 pennies to rub together and that that your kids go without.

I think (but it's purely a guess based on scant information in your posts) that you have 2 good income something like 30k (him)and 35 or 40k(you) and that your kids do plenty. You moved for jobs and schools (so I'm guessing you bought an expensive house in the catchment for a good school) and I'm supposing that someone that does that has the kids swimming, music lessons and all the rest of it. Childcare costs? You said you have now budgeted for everything and I'm assuming that includes holiday/leisure etc.

I think it is possible that despite your good incomes you are over committed and so spending on hobbies that should be reasonable for a family with a good income is a problem. A household with a good income shouldn't be this near the knuckle on spending. The "problem" spending seems to be a few thousand every few years? ...and take over 5 years to pay off?!

I think you need to look afresh at all your out goings and see what you can do so that your husband (and you) have a reasonable amount of personal spends for working adults with good incomes.

If you decide to follow the "sell everything your husband owns and don't let him have any money" line of advice I would just go the whole hog and divorce him because that will be the inevitable consequence of treating him like a kid permenantly on the naughty step anyway. That or he has a breakdown.

He probably brings home a couple of grand a month straight into your household budget and is getting called a "cocklodger" for spending over £75 a month.

Stop treating him like a child and have a discussion about what he needs because the current situation isn't working for him (or you).

I meant impulsive not compulsive behaviour.

I'm one of those posters who suggested possible MH issues. That was because the behaviour seems addictive and reminded me of my ex friend, who did happen to be bi-polar.

I didn't say that it justified the DH's behaviour. MH issues aren't an excuse, and in the end I stopped making excuses for my so-called friend and I no longer wanted her in my life. It's toxic behaviour and means the person is a user.

It might have been mentioned already but you can sign up to Money Saving Expert’s Credit Club. Basically gives you free access to your various credit reports. I have signed myself and DH up so I could see all our credits and accounts (includes mortgages and current accounts as well as any hire purchase, credit cards etc etc) prior to remortgaging. DH is also terrible with money and I manage everything. I think the knowing I can see any changes to his credit if I wanted to makes him think twice before taking out more. You get an email when your credit score has been updated too and could probably link his credit club account to your email so you can see everything.

I would divorce him so any debt he runs up after the divorce will not affect you. You can still live together and he can be great partner and father, but he will be solely responsible for his money habits and will have to take responsibility for his own actions. Separate finances completely.
If you want to be mother rather then equal partner to your husband then jus carry on paying his debts. You will pay them for the rest of your life.
Best of luck.

You say he is 'pretty thoughtful' but he is constantly plunging both of you into debt. So how thoughtful is he really?

I think some therapy is what's needed.

This isn't about money. He's not necessarily 'thick', 'selfish' or a 'waster', or any of the other judgements that are being handed down. I reckon lots of the people here who think it's pathetic he can't get beyond habits forged in childhood are similarly mean about people who want to lose weight but can't seem to stop treating themselves to cake and chocolate - or perhaps they'd be more understanding of that because that's their vice, whereas this is someone else's and therefore contemptible.

He knows what he should be doing, but can't seem to get it right or stick to it. I agree that taking charge over and over again isn't working, but personally I would try to get to the bottom of what's causing this before divorcing a man I was otherwise happy with.

If you do go down the route of divorce but not breaking up, make sure he has his own place where his post goes and his deliveries and cards are registered to. Otherwise you will get bailiffs turning up and trying to repossess things that you cannot prove you specifically own. I never keep receipts for things like laptops and TVs after a certain time and I suspect most people don't. I'd not be able to prove what I owned in my own house!
You need to be completely unconnected in terms of address and finances and legal status. He also needs to get professional help. He's not going to do it while you continue to clean up his mess.