Would you split over this? AIBU not to?

[rainbowiris]

Long time lurker but first time poster so be a bit gentle with me please! Sorry this ended up being a bit long but I'd appreciate any advice.

DH and I generally have a good relationship, get on well, still plenty to talk about even 17 years in. Two teenage DC, we have our ups and downs but generally our relationship is pretty solid. However, he is completely shit with money. We both have ok-paid jobs now although I earn more than him and always have (we actually do the same job now though). When I met him, he had a number of debts (already with collection agents etc), which I helped him to sort out and pay off. He has since, a number of times over the years we've been together, periodically (probably about 4 times) run up credit card debts which we've ended up getting loans to pay off. Not huge amounts each time, a couple of thousand - enough for me to be really angry but not divorce him over it if that makes sense. I ended up taking complete control of the finances after we'd been together a few years as it became obvious he wasn't going to be able to manage things like leaving enough money in to cover direct debits, and he willingly gets his wage paid into the joint account, with me then transferring him back his half of whatever's left after everything's paid out.

Each time the credit card thing happened he promised it will never happen again and for a while it's always ok, apart from having debts to pay off, which sent us into a bit of a debt spiral each month and ending up using our joint credit card more than we should. A couple of years ago we moved to a different area which led to a couple of years of living frugally as moving was an expensive business but we had to do it at that point for various school/job related reasons. Our financial situation eased up this summer when we were able to switch to a cheaper mortgage deal and refinanced our debts with a clear plan to have everything paid off within five years, this new financial situation also freeing us up from the cycle of being in debt each month as we have more money to live on. It took me a long time of researching financial options and in general I spend a lot of time each month sorting the money out. I felt like a huge weight was lifted when everything had got sorted and there was actually enough money to pay for everything each month. We get about £75 each left to buy whatever we want with, which I know isn't loads but literally everything else is paid for and we have money in the joint account that can be used too (just requires a bit more discussion before an expensive purchase) so I manage fine with this amount.

Tonight I got home, picked up the post off my seat on the sofa and opened it, inadvertently opening a letter addressed to DH (it looked like a bill, and as I deal with all bills I didn't even check whose name was on the front). It was a letter from PayPal credit saying he's defaulted on a payment. He owes them £1700.

I asked him straight away, he said sorry and he's not spent it on anything much, just bits and bats (he cycles so buys bike bits a lot), and he's also got at least £500 on another card that he told me he'd got rid of.

Extra info: he had a bit of a shit childhood, ended up being brought up mainly by paternal grandparents. His dad would swan in every so often and take him out shopping. I think this has created some issues for him, he thinks credit cards are free money and that he can just buy what he likes when he likes. He can't seem to make the association that having these debts creates this ridiculous cycle of not being able to afford anything as we spend so much paying them back! He doesn't like waiting to buy things although will spend time researching to get the best deal in things he wants to buy, just doesn't like to wait to save up.

Aside from money, he's a good husband, great dad. Never looks at other women, mostly pretty thoughtful, does his share round the house. I don't want to divorce him but I'm really struggling to get past the fact he's lied AGAIN about this and put us up shit creek again with money, just when we'd got sorted. Part of me wants to kill him/kick him out/divorce him because he's had so many chances and if I keep bailing him out he'll keep doing it, part of me thinks it's not worth throwing a good relationship away over money, I'm 40 and not interested in starting again, I just want to settle down and enjoy what I've worked hard for, I can't afford to live here on my own and the kids need both parents.

AIBU to not kill him? What can I do? How do we pay off yet more money? I can't just leave him to it as he doesn't have enough left to pay it off himself. He's nearly 50 FFS, I thought we'd be sorted for money by now :(

Op I literally had to check this wasn’t a past post of mine. I’m in/been through exactly the same. We are still together but the trust is gone and I’m so resentful (the most recent ‘discovery’ meant he used our lifetime savings which I’d been protecting to clear the debt as I refused to sort it out yet again).
No advice but you are not alone and it’s shit.

I want to make him pay it back himself but can't see how he can do that on his £75 a month and still actually be able to live, in one of the past episodes I tried this and he ended up borrowing money again as he never had any at all left. I couldn't work full time and be left with nothing without becoming very resentful, even if it was my mistakes that had left me with nothing, if that even makes sense!

There's your issue. You empathise with his situation and so you step in and put the whole family through hoops to pay off his debt. His actions have put the fear of god into you, you can't leave him to it, it will get worse, so you just have to save him!

That's not particularly pleasant, is it? Not the actions of an adult? You even have a cod psychology lesson worked out for whay he is like this. Whilst you fret over it he keps on spending and cycling of into rhe distance with his friends.

At the very least he is a total man child - you have helped him in not making him face up to his actions.

At worst, he just doesn't give a shit. His lies keep him cycling, you don't particularly make his life miserable when he 'confesses', you just pay it all back and off he goes again.

How much of your kids childhood did he spend?

How much of the rest of your life will you give him to spend?

This happened to a friend of mine. She still doesn’t know what he spent all the money on.

She divorced him.

tell him he cannot have any credit cards at all as he clearly has a real problem. get him help and only a pre pay card?

@lockeddownandcrazy

tell him he cannot have any credit cards at all as he clearly has a real problem. get him help and only a pre pay card?

'Solutions' like this make it OP's problem, not her husband's.

They also don't work - I speak from experience. He will find a way to spend, and meanwhile will be resentful & offended that he's 'controlled' thus.

Fundamentally it doesn't address the issues of lack of respect & financial abuse that this represents.

I'm doubtful that someone who behaves like this can change, but if he does, it has to come from him. And of course it didn't, as OP found the latest transgression, it wasn't shared voluntarily by her husband.

I have a DH who keeps running up debt due to deep rooted childhood issues and it is so hard. However like yours my DH is otherwise great and as I have major childhood issues which manifest in a different way and which he has to manage I'm not going to divorce him for his. However he does have to attend weekly Debtors Anonymous meetings and I control all money, he is not allowed an account which isn't joint with me. Every Sunday I sit down and go through all the accounts and query anything that doesn't look right. Once a month I also check his credit report just to be safe.

I would divorce him so your finances are separate. He should also sign over most of the house to you and you can be tenants in common. Not 50/50 though as you should get more to make up for bailing him out. Work out how much debt you have paid off for him over the years. If you want to then continue to live together at least you don't have to worry that his debts will drag you down. Others are right though - he needs to pay off this last debt not you. He needs to feel some real consequences. I wouldn't even bother helping him plan how to do it. He clearly thinks you will sort it out, show him you've finally had enough! Personally I would leave completely at this stage as i would have lost alll respect. His childhood really doesn't explain this - selfishness and thoughtlessness does.

He has a serious addiction that he is not facing up to, the lies and selfishness would be a deal breaker for me. He seems to be quite immature so if you do give him £75 pocket money he will begin to resent you, once resentment sets in its hard to shift. It will grow like Japanese knotweed on a wall.

He needs to ask for help if you stand a chance of going forward. I'm sorry you have to live with this stress, it must be hell.

I think I would ask him for a 'technical divorce' . I would tell him you love him but you can't deal with the money aspect of his behaviour. Tell him you want to stay with him as a partner but you want to be divorced from him legally so you are not responsible for his debt. You have given him loads of chances and what you have done hitherto is not working so you are using the nuclear option. Then do it. Have him served with papers and go through with it.

Once he is a single man he will probably start to take responsibility for himself. Maybe not but at least you are not linked in law. There is no reason why you can't remain together (in fact) but not in law. This might shake him up to the point he starts to get a grip but even if it doesn't you don't have to keep acting like his Mum which is not sexy.

Hi op

My story is identical to yours. I've been married 13 years together 15. 4 children.
Dh just kept running up debts. Could never save. I always had to go without as we were paying off some card or some loan. As soon as we got a bit ahead he would run up another card without me knowing. Gotnin a cycle of It would always come out in the end and Id be furious. He'd be so sorry and I'd spend the next few weeks re jigging our finances to fix it all. More months of paying it back.

In xmas 2018 I had a hard year 4 vvvv young kids, worked so much overtime to pay off some loan he had. Then on Christmas day I found more debt about 3k I think. I was livid. We didn't speak for a week and I gave him an choice, carry on or we can divorce.

For a year or so I though things were OK, we were getting a house extension done so borrowed some money from the mortgage. All agreed and in joint names. My Dh then decided to run up 8k of debts on cards and take 8k from our mortgage fund to pay himself back. I only found out when I went to pay the builders from the remortgage fund.

This was the final straw for me. Not only can i not trust him with our money, He lies and he stole form me. He replaced the money with A personal loan but this will take 3 or 4 years to pay back and he has nothing to show for it. He is just vvv bad with money but it don't mean I have to live like that.

This has happened about 5 times over the course of our marriage and fundamentaly I made a choice that I wasn't happy living like this anymore and he was unlikely to change. More irritating was that I never got anything from this money so wasn't even spent on me or a nice holiday or something. He's selfish.

Anyway, for me there was no way back I felt like I'd been punched when I found out the last time as I thought we were back on track. I started divorce proceedings in May and I'm well underway with that now. We are still having to live together until we sell the house but we are entirely separated in all other way.

He never understood the impact of his lies on me or the constant worry of money or me not really knowing if we could afford something as i always knew deep down he would have another debt creeping up somewhere so I always had to hold back. Worst part is together we earned a reasonable income and could have had a great life. When eve ri have doubts about the divorce I think back to the hurt this causes and how I just don't want it for the rest of my life. He had lots of chances but he never really saw the problem just said sorry to make it all better and I was stupid to believe him.he always mimimises my feelings and says I have some weird problem with debs, I don't I have problems with lies in a marriage and selfish behaviour.

He’d best get busy selling the bikes then.

He knows there are no consequences for him, you always sort it, so he carries on.

And he will have even less money if you divorce.

I'm willing to swim against the tide and say I couldn't live on £75 a month spending money and nor could my husband (and I am a part time carer and my husband a part time teacher so it's not because we are high earners. Some months I could and other months there is something I need or want enough that I couldn't.

You have taken control and it sounds like you have designed the budget? It isn't adequate or realistic for an average adult. I understand sometimes there is no more so that's that but you have already said that there is more if it is discussed (basically if he asks you). You need to revisit tge budget together - he may prefer to forgo some things you have budgeted to have more money for his hobby/social life. If there really is no more than earning more as a household needs to be a priority.

How long has it taken to build up £1700 of debt. At £100 a month for 17 months he still has only spent £175 a month - not much really if it includes his socialising/hobby/clothes? what else

Have you really budgeted for everything? food/fuel/prescriptions/dentist/glasses or contacts if applicable/ clothes/shoes...

If you have budgeted for holidays, eating out, days out, kids activities etc can the amounts be revisited so your husband has a chance of being able to stick within it and have a life?

As for some of the suggestions that you shoukd "make him sell whatever he bought" with his vast profligacy - I doubt you will be finding huge amounts of valuable consumer goods at that level. More likely a few bacon butties on his bike rides and a couple of items of clothing and bits for his bike. Does he also treat the kids from this money too?

If he has unresolved childhood issues which cause his spending then episode one should have been his wake up call to seek help. Every time you bail him out you enable his behaviour. He is selfishly taking family money (money you don't even have yet, future earnings!) for himself, stealing from you and your children effectively as you have to go without to pay it back. It is deceitful and lying is one thing I can not tolerate.

You have to manage it differently this time if you are to stay with him and it is to be the last time. He is potentially affecting your credit rating too so getting out down the line could be more difficult. He needs to grown up and take responsibility. He no longer gets £75pm, he can buy NOTHING that isn't essential (e.g. food) until the debts are clear. He can sell HIS things to add further funds to clear the debt. He needs to deal with it and IMO if he won't or can't then he doesn't think enough of your or your children for you to continue as a family unit.

@Raver84

So sorry to read your story. So much is familiar to me - that punch to the gut when you discover another debt. My ex was all kinds of abusive in addition to financially but it was all part of a theme, really.

This stood out:

Worst part is together we earned a reasonable income and could have had a great life

Absolutely. This was true for us, too. I finally ended it but money is a struggle for me, although I've a good job & I resent so much that all those years I used savings to bail him out (but it was 'us' at that time & I saw no other option) and I could really do with them now.

Just over a £1 a day when working full time sounds miserable and unsustainable for both of you, my daughters school lunches cost more than that.

Can all the finances be looked at, it sounds really close to the knuckle with bills. I can see how the credit cards gets used so it’s a catch 22 situation. The lying isn’t acceptable though.

@Winter2020 I agree!

Oh Rainbow, this is so difficult. He sounds like the perfect man/father. You can't divorce him

She absolutely can.

@Winter2020 I'm amazed at your post tbh. In my household I'm the only person, so I have the following choices:

• live within my means
• earn more

or

• get into debt

Its that simple. How do you suggest that 'amounts are revisited' if there are bills and debts to pay, a fixed income and no remaining money? Magic money tree?

OP you say it's not huge amounts of money but 1700 pounds is a huge amount of money. Especially if its happened before.

Dump

"he thinks credit cards are free money and that he can just buy what he likes when he likes."

So are you saying that he is as thick as shit as well as a selfish liar?

If you stay with him that is a valid choice but you have to think about being in your 60s/70s and retired on reduced income and not having the money to sort out his financial choices. How would you feel for example if you had to take on a job post retirement because you discovered more debt?

A friends husband is like this he keeps running up thousands in debt on crap and then she organised how they pay it off. It’s happened twice and I’m sure it’ll happen again. Because he knows she won’t break the family up but it’s caused her so much stress while he seems to carry on living his best life and hobby. She seems to sacrifice everything.

I couldn’t live like that, work hard for my money and I like to see the benefits. You get less than a hundred pounds for you while he is still off accruing debt, he may have issues but he still lies and carries on anyway.

I was crap with money as a teen/ early twenties. Know what I sorted myself out. I had to go without while paying it back. I had to suck it up as i was accountable: learned my lesson. Don’t have debt now just my mortgage.

@Winter2020
How long has it taken to build up £1700 of debt. At £100 a month for 17 months he still has only spent £175 a month

It’s £2200, not £1700 as OP said he had admitted to another 500 on a credit card he’d told her he’d got rid of. And the OP said they’d remortgaged and consolidated debts at the beginning of the summer so unless he was doing something fraudulent, it’s likely been about 4 month. That’s £575 a month.

OP also said they have more money in the joint savings, it’s just that that’s money they have to discuss.

So her DH has spent 2 grand on stuff without discussing it over the summer and deliberately hidden some of the means he used in order to do that. It isn’t just about the money, though obviously wanting to spend a summer holiday’s worth of cash on yourself when the rest of the family is being thrifty is a big deal, it’s that he’s done it deliberately in a way that means the OP gets no opportunity to give an opinion or have her own or their DC’s needs taken into account. And it’s not the first time he’s made this sort of play to get more of the family’s resources entirely for himself, it’s the 5th.

@Greyblueeyes

Why is he out biking while you sit at home and worry yourself sick about this?

Because he knows his mummywife will bail him out while he plays outside with his pals.