Would you split over this? AIBU not to?

[rainbowiris]

Long time lurker but first time poster so be a bit gentle with me please! Sorry this ended up being a bit long but I'd appreciate any advice.

DH and I generally have a good relationship, get on well, still plenty to talk about even 17 years in. Two teenage DC, we have our ups and downs but generally our relationship is pretty solid. However, he is completely shit with money. We both have ok-paid jobs now although I earn more than him and always have (we actually do the same job now though). When I met him, he had a number of debts (already with collection agents etc), which I helped him to sort out and pay off. He has since, a number of times over the years we've been together, periodically (probably about 4 times) run up credit card debts which we've ended up getting loans to pay off. Not huge amounts each time, a couple of thousand - enough for me to be really angry but not divorce him over it if that makes sense. I ended up taking complete control of the finances after we'd been together a few years as it became obvious he wasn't going to be able to manage things like leaving enough money in to cover direct debits, and he willingly gets his wage paid into the joint account, with me then transferring him back his half of whatever's left after everything's paid out.

Each time the credit card thing happened he promised it will never happen again and for a while it's always ok, apart from having debts to pay off, which sent us into a bit of a debt spiral each month and ending up using our joint credit card more than we should. A couple of years ago we moved to a different area which led to a couple of years of living frugally as moving was an expensive business but we had to do it at that point for various school/job related reasons. Our financial situation eased up this summer when we were able to switch to a cheaper mortgage deal and refinanced our debts with a clear plan to have everything paid off within five years, this new financial situation also freeing us up from the cycle of being in debt each month as we have more money to live on. It took me a long time of researching financial options and in general I spend a lot of time each month sorting the money out. I felt like a huge weight was lifted when everything had got sorted and there was actually enough money to pay for everything each month. We get about £75 each left to buy whatever we want with, which I know isn't loads but literally everything else is paid for and we have money in the joint account that can be used too (just requires a bit more discussion before an expensive purchase) so I manage fine with this amount.

Tonight I got home, picked up the post off my seat on the sofa and opened it, inadvertently opening a letter addressed to DH (it looked like a bill, and as I deal with all bills I didn't even check whose name was on the front). It was a letter from PayPal credit saying he's defaulted on a payment. He owes them £1700.

I asked him straight away, he said sorry and he's not spent it on anything much, just bits and bats (he cycles so buys bike bits a lot), and he's also got at least £500 on another card that he told me he'd got rid of.

Extra info: he had a bit of a shit childhood, ended up being brought up mainly by paternal grandparents. His dad would swan in every so often and take him out shopping. I think this has created some issues for him, he thinks credit cards are free money and that he can just buy what he likes when he likes. He can't seem to make the association that having these debts creates this ridiculous cycle of not being able to afford anything as we spend so much paying them back! He doesn't like waiting to buy things although will spend time researching to get the best deal in things he wants to buy, just doesn't like to wait to save up.

Aside from money, he's a good husband, great dad. Never looks at other women, mostly pretty thoughtful, does his share round the house. I don't want to divorce him but I'm really struggling to get past the fact he's lied AGAIN about this and put us up shit creek again with money, just when we'd got sorted. Part of me wants to kill him/kick him out/divorce him because he's had so many chances and if I keep bailing him out he'll keep doing it, part of me thinks it's not worth throwing a good relationship away over money, I'm 40 and not interested in starting again, I just want to settle down and enjoy what I've worked hard for, I can't afford to live here on my own and the kids need both parents.

AIBU to not kill him? What can I do? How do we pay off yet more money? I can't just leave him to it as he doesn't have enough left to pay it off himself. He's nearly 50 FFS, I thought we'd be sorted for money by now :(

if he's a good husband and father

He's clearly not a good husband and my definition of a good father is not someone who let's his kids do without whilst he indulges his hobbies.

If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll get what you've always been getting.

He has no consequences to his thoughtless, inconsiderate and reckless spending. He doesn't care about the impact on you. He thinks that what HE wants is the most important thing, so he's not all that wonderful, is he? I'm sure he has good qualities, most people do, but declining to spend responsibly is clearly bothering you yet he keeps doing it.

You have to change how you respond. Do not enable him by bailing him out. Choose what you are going to do to make him pay for his own debt and stick to it. Personally as pps have suggested, I think making him sell some of his expensive sh*t would be appropriate because otherwise how will he ever learn that he cannot have everything he wants whenever he wants?

Or you can pay the debt off and have this whole situation recur again. And again. And again...

Luckily because of lockdown second hand bike prices are very healthy at the moment!

He needs to sell his bikes to clear the debt.

I'd divorce purely to split the finances. You can still be in a relationship with him. Transfer the house to your name if you can afford the mortgage. He can pay rent and living expenses but you'll be secure in knowing that whatever he does your house and financial future is secure.

Did he really spend all these thousands of pounds over the years on himself while you and the children scrimped over pennies? Did the children go without clubs and hobbies because you didn't have the money?

Thank you for all your replies. I am reading all of them and thinking about what you've all said. I feel a bit shell-shocked this morning so can't really reply in a coherent way at the moment, but please know I won't be bailing him out.

I think you need to take full control of all money. Amy purchases has to go through you & he'll have to close down all accounts. Paypal, amazon, credit cards. Etc.

Fully agree with this and he must sell the bikes. Bikes go for a lot of money especially now, and sounds like he's bought good bikes. So I imagine by selling them, you'll pay off most of that debt easily.

He has to learn there are consequences for his actions, just like a child would. He loses his possessions for lying. He has to pay it back by selling what he loves. And then he doesn't get any freedom with money again until he has gotten help with his money problem.

I can't see him changing. He must sell stuff to try and clear the debt. He isn't a good DH or father if he's taking money away from you making you go without. That point needs to be made very clearly.

@TorkTorkBam

Finding £75 is easily possible. Part time job for him at the weekend/evening at the supermarket or whatever. I'm guessing he won't even suggest it never mind do it.

OP says he has £75 a month after bills, not that he needs it. He owes £1700

Make him close down all of his online accounts or just change the passwords on them to something only you know.

If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll get what you've always been getting

This. It’s time for a change. If it were me I would issue an ultimatum- he seeks debt advice/ counselling and comes up with a valid financial plan which it written down, to pay it all back. I would also insist on having access to his accounts. He cannot moan about this because he has proven himself to lie and has basically betrayed you, not with a woman but with money. Thus would be last chance saloon for me. If he doesn’t make a genuine change now they would be it. I know other people have said he’s great but continually lying to you and putting you in debt isn’t a “good husband” is it? Financial issues are one of the top three causes of divorce so ignore this at your peril. Just because he hasn’t cheated with another woman doesn’t mean this can’t end your marriage if it isn’t nipped in the bud NOW. Credit ratings are important and his actions could affect you for years after.

You tell him it stops now and you want to see evidence of change otherwise it’s over. I’m afraid that any other course of action will just result in the usual apologies and then a return to the irresponsible behaviour in a few months. Act now.

He's not a good husband or father. What sort of a man let's his wife and kids go without (I bet you have to be frugal with the kids too, no All Inclusive holidays for them), while he spends thousands on himself. Thousands and thousands and thousands over the years.

Oh OP I feel for you so much, but he isn't a good man as you describe, he just isn't. A shit childhood is an excuse for 1 maybe even 2 fuck ups but he is hurting you and your children whilst he gets to continue to get what he wants and you bail him out. He's a cock lodger.

I know you said he'd feel resentful paying it off whilst working full time but tough shit, he got into debt and didn't want to save this is the outcome. I would leave but understand it isn't easy with children.

For those saying she should take control of the money. She already did that.

He takes out multiple credit cards in secret.

She doesn't know he has done it until she catches him somehow.

If you stay in the relationship, and he doesn’t commit to action and take it (which seems probable), this kind of thing will continue to happen in the future.

His spending and lies have been detrimental to the whole family, and your money has gone on bailing him out, not better things for yourself and the DC.

Where there are loans to pay off his splurge debts, whose name are they in?

He’s the perfect man apart from the lying, cheating, selfishness, stealing ..... Yes, he’s stealing from you and DC.

I’d try the advice MNers have given here, basically, anything that makes it impossible for him to borrow money. And if that doesn’t work — can you bear to spend the rest of your life, and the rest of DC’s childhoods, struggling with debt in order to fund his spending on himself?

I imagine he sees you as a good and capable manager.

What if he saw the level of distress and emotional upset that this causes you.

Does he see the practicality if you sorting out the debt management but not the worry, upset and insecurity?

Stop treating it like a financial problem and present it as emotional.

Meanwhile, He needs to follow through with his bike re-sale plans.

[quote BoomBoomsCousin]@Winter2020
How long has it taken to build up £1700 of debt. At £100 a month for 17 months he still has only spent £175 a month

It’s £2200, not £1700 as OP said he had admitted to another 500 on a credit card he’d told her he’d got rid of. And the OP said they’d remortgaged and consolidated debts at the beginning of the summer so unless he was doing something fraudulent, it’s likely been about 4 month. That’s £575 a month.

OP also said they have more money in the joint savings, it’s just that that’s money they have to discuss.

So her DH has spent 2 grand on stuff without discussing it over the summer and deliberately hidden some of the means he used in order to do that. It isn’t just about the money, though obviously wanting to spend a summer holiday’s worth of cash on yourself when the rest of the family is being thrifty is a big deal, it’s that he’s done it deliberately in a way that means the OP gets no opportunity to give an opinion or have her own or their DC’s needs taken into account. And it’s not the first time he’s made this sort of play to get more of the family’s resources entirely for himself, it’s the 5th.[/quote]
OP read this again.

Do you see how utterly selfish & reckless he has been? Again!

Sell his bike, any decent clothes, books, technology. He can get a second job - people have to do that all the time to pay their way why not him? £75 may not be a lot but he needs to cover his essentials first and paying off debts IS essential. Another job will help end it sooner or give him some spending money in the meantime.

IF you stay (I strongly advise you not to) then you need to set up some regime as PP said: regular credit checks to see what he has open.

Of course he'll still find a way around it and you'll still end up stressed about money and resentful about the division of mental load.

There's a lot to be said for charm but by God it really blinds sometimes.

If you take control of all money that is going to be terrible for your marriage and for your mental health. It would make me feel like I was something/someone I absolutely would not be comfortable with.

You are not his guardian or his Mom. Divorce in law only. It might be the only way he gets to realise you are serious about the impact this is having on you. He sounds like a thick twat though to be honest.

Having a childlike attitude to adult themes/responsibilities is deeply unsexy.

He's not a good father or husband ... because he is robbing from the family pot.

Do you have £1700 to spend on something you want? Or for the kids.. great laptop / ski trip / first car for teens.
His hobbies or interests are not more valid or important than yours.
What's the point in bailing him out yet again. It always happens again. I really just don't see the point of continuing a relationship with someone who does this time and again, you'll be repaying debts till you die

I wouldn't divorce him but would need to find some way of securing myself against the issues he causes. My father was the same, only he was unwilling to change and had affairs all the time, so divorce was the only option. He needs to see a therapist or someone who can help him break out of this pattern.

The thing is you're living off £75 a month, so your husband can live off hundreds a month by spending on credit he knows you'll help pay off. How is that a decent husband or father?! That's without the fact he's perfectly happy to lie to you.

If you look at a debt management plan it will affect your credit rating as well as you have joint debt (the mortgage at a minimum). So really that's not a great idea.

Personally I would divorce him so your finances are completely separate as a start. But if you can't afford to take the mortgage on in your name only you might need to sell. He has to get therapy. Then I would work out a way to manage the debt only if you really really want to stay with him. But honestly I don't think i would, he's no respect for you. His desire to buy materialistic stuff is more important than you and his family. I would leave him

Repeatedly does the same things.
Isn’t willing to do X, Y and Z to change.
Resents you for ‘control’.
Blames his childhood.

Not good signs!

To the pp saying 75 is not enough to live off, they are having to do this because of ops husbands addiction. Op has not caused this financial crisis yet she is suffering due to it. And instead of sticking to the budget, getting another job, selling stuff, her husband is racking up more debts!! There is zero reason to feel bad for him having that amount of money to play with and bloody loads for the op

I am somewhat boggling that you are blaming a nearly 50yo man's childhood for him lying to you.

This is financial abuse. You only have the illusion of controlling the money. That is not reality. He spends thousands on himself and you get £75.

I am also boggling at your idea of showing him this thread. Nobody is so dumb that they think repeatedly spending thousands on themselves while the other scrimps is OK. Even if they did, if they care for the other person then it will happen once only at which point their partber objects and they stop, seeking help as necessary. Why would the opinions of strangers on the internet make any difference to someone if the major direct impact on his relationship and children is not enough?