Would you split over this? AIBU not to?

[rainbowiris]

Long time lurker but first time poster so be a bit gentle with me please! Sorry this ended up being a bit long but I'd appreciate any advice.

DH and I generally have a good relationship, get on well, still plenty to talk about even 17 years in. Two teenage DC, we have our ups and downs but generally our relationship is pretty solid. However, he is completely shit with money. We both have ok-paid jobs now although I earn more than him and always have (we actually do the same job now though). When I met him, he had a number of debts (already with collection agents etc), which I helped him to sort out and pay off. He has since, a number of times over the years we've been together, periodically (probably about 4 times) run up credit card debts which we've ended up getting loans to pay off. Not huge amounts each time, a couple of thousand - enough for me to be really angry but not divorce him over it if that makes sense. I ended up taking complete control of the finances after we'd been together a few years as it became obvious he wasn't going to be able to manage things like leaving enough money in to cover direct debits, and he willingly gets his wage paid into the joint account, with me then transferring him back his half of whatever's left after everything's paid out.

Each time the credit card thing happened he promised it will never happen again and for a while it's always ok, apart from having debts to pay off, which sent us into a bit of a debt spiral each month and ending up using our joint credit card more than we should. A couple of years ago we moved to a different area which led to a couple of years of living frugally as moving was an expensive business but we had to do it at that point for various school/job related reasons. Our financial situation eased up this summer when we were able to switch to a cheaper mortgage deal and refinanced our debts with a clear plan to have everything paid off within five years, this new financial situation also freeing us up from the cycle of being in debt each month as we have more money to live on. It took me a long time of researching financial options and in general I spend a lot of time each month sorting the money out. I felt like a huge weight was lifted when everything had got sorted and there was actually enough money to pay for everything each month. We get about £75 each left to buy whatever we want with, which I know isn't loads but literally everything else is paid for and we have money in the joint account that can be used too (just requires a bit more discussion before an expensive purchase) so I manage fine with this amount.

Tonight I got home, picked up the post off my seat on the sofa and opened it, inadvertently opening a letter addressed to DH (it looked like a bill, and as I deal with all bills I didn't even check whose name was on the front). It was a letter from PayPal credit saying he's defaulted on a payment. He owes them £1700.

I asked him straight away, he said sorry and he's not spent it on anything much, just bits and bats (he cycles so buys bike bits a lot), and he's also got at least £500 on another card that he told me he'd got rid of.

Extra info: he had a bit of a shit childhood, ended up being brought up mainly by paternal grandparents. His dad would swan in every so often and take him out shopping. I think this has created some issues for him, he thinks credit cards are free money and that he can just buy what he likes when he likes. He can't seem to make the association that having these debts creates this ridiculous cycle of not being able to afford anything as we spend so much paying them back! He doesn't like waiting to buy things although will spend time researching to get the best deal in things he wants to buy, just doesn't like to wait to save up.

Aside from money, he's a good husband, great dad. Never looks at other women, mostly pretty thoughtful, does his share round the house. I don't want to divorce him but I'm really struggling to get past the fact he's lied AGAIN about this and put us up shit creek again with money, just when we'd got sorted. Part of me wants to kill him/kick him out/divorce him because he's had so many chances and if I keep bailing him out he'll keep doing it, part of me thinks it's not worth throwing a good relationship away over money, I'm 40 and not interested in starting again, I just want to settle down and enjoy what I've worked hard for, I can't afford to live here on my own and the kids need both parents.

AIBU to not kill him? What can I do? How do we pay off yet more money? I can't just leave him to it as he doesn't have enough left to pay it off himself. He's nearly 50 FFS, I thought we'd be sorted for money by now :(

Get him to sell his possessions to pay debts that he’s accrued.

You need to decide whether you can live like this and what you are prepared to do.

My dh is similar, similar excuses to yours, shit childhood blah blah fucking blah. Also a very good man, father, husband but no idea how to manage his and ours finances.

I have full control over everything. He has to ask for money or to order anything. Luckily he's not particularly technologically savvy and I open all the post so no opportunity for secret borrowing.

But it's tedious and boring and a lot of responsibility on 1 person and I feel resentful sometimes. Worth it to keep financial security and dh.

Set up an experian account with alerts coming to you. Check it monthly. His spending money drops to £25 until debt is paid off, he sells his bike stuff.

I've not read the whole thread yet but I think I'd divorce just so that I could remove myself legally from his shit show. That doesn't necessarily mean splitting up the whole relationship, but just protecting yourself from getting the bailiffs turn up one day. You can't trust him or rely on him. Even with total control of the money, there's no way you can prevent him from opening a new eBay account or applying for a new credit card or just going overdrawn.
I'd tell him that all assets have to be put into your name (house, car) so you can protect them for your family and that you won't let him drain your security any further - he's a grown arse man and at some point has to stop blaming his childhood and take responsibility.

I'd ask DH how he plans to resolve this.
I'd expect him to sell his own stuff and get a second job.

YWNBU to LTB though.

I feel furious on OP's behalf just reading this. What a waster her DH is.

In all honesty I'd have made him give up his credit card and shut down his paypal account.

He can't be trusted.

Sure, this sounds like financial abuse - but what HE's doing is financially abusive, because he's wasting money and lying about it. You having full control over it is less abusive because no doubt you would still let him have money when he wants it, IF you can afford it.

The amount of money wasted on interest is so upsetting - can you maybe tot up how much interest (wasted money) you've paid because of his debts and make him SEE what he's doing?

Also suggest that he sells some of his bike shiz to cover the debt - the only way he'll truly "feel" the effects of what he's doing.

I'd have difficulty with this, I have to say. My mother was a spendthrift and my father hid money from her so that he had enough to bail her out when she got into debt. If she knew it was there, she would have spent it. My sister is like her and I have had to bail her out on occasion, once to stop the bailiffs taking her car in lieu.

I couldn't cope with a husband like this. Thankfully mine isn't - he's like me, he'll spend money when he has it, look for bargains, but make sure there's always a hefty cushion for emergencies. Money is one of the biggest dramas in relationships when attitudes are mismatched.

I don't think you should leave him yet but I DO think you should lay the law dow THIS TIME and say "sell bikes, give me your credit card(s), give me joint access to your Paypal account and NEVER do this again or I'm leaving, I'm done with it".

As others have said, the difficulty you have is that he still has a sufficiently good credit rating to secretly open new accounts and cards - but that would also be a dealbreaker for me from now on. And in all honesty, I couldn't deal with allowing someone to lose their credit rating in case it affected me and the family down the line as well.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I've not read the whole thread yet but I think I'd divorce just so that I could remove myself legally from his shit show. That doesn't necessarily mean splitting up the whole relationship, but just protecting yourself from getting the bailiffs turn up one day. You can't trust him or rely on him. Even with total control of the money, there's no way you can prevent him from opening a new eBay account or applying for a new credit card or just going overdrawn. I'd tell him that all assets have to be put into your name (house, car) so you can protect them for your family and that you won't let him drain your security any further - he's a grown arse man and at some point has to stop blaming his childhood and take responsibility.

Actually, this isn't a bad idea either. Divorce, get all assets into your name so they're protected and then he can do what he likes - sink or swim - and it won't affect you. And it'll be a lot easier further down the line if you decide you actually can't stand it any more and want to genuinely split up with him.

Sounds like he could be suffering with a mental illness because of his childhood, could potentially be a personality disorder or bipolar. Or along those lines.. I'm not a professional but it does seem psychological to me rather than him deliberately being an asshole.

Sell the bikes. All of them. And any other "man hobby" shit he has lying around. Use that money to pay off the debt.

Then think about the rest. Personally, I couldn't take the stress of living like this and it would kill any love I felt over time. Better to start again now than in 20 years when you really cant take it any more - imagine trying to manage this on a pension.

If you really can't face divorce though, you could try living separately. He moves out, you separate your finances, he deals with his own debts and -if he ever wants to come home again- organises and attends some heavy therapy for himself. Of course, after separation, you may decide to make it permanent.

He really doesn't care about the impact this has on you and his children as long as he can get his spending fix!

That is so bloody selfish of him. He knows what it was like scrimping and saving to pay of his numerous past debts but seems to have no problem getting you into the same trouble again.
I would say enough is enough and I would be out.

fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Keep letting him treat you like a mug and he'll keep treating you like a mug. Do you need to keep rinsing and repeating until you have bailiffs at the door and risk losing your home before you wake up? He's not just running up debt. He's lying to you and deceiving you. Any measures you try and put in place to control his borrowing will almost certainly just cause him to be even more deceitful. Why would you gamble your and your children's financial stability on someone who treats you with such utter contempt?

Out of interest, OP, if you totted up all the money he shouldn’t have spent over the years (ideally, including the interest you’ve had to pay, but even without), how much would that be? How much more money could the family have now? How much easier would your mortgage be? How many more holidays could you have taken your DC on? How many other plans have been put on hold or abandoned altogether that could have been fulfilled?

Get the house and all assets transferred to your name. Then stop bailing him out. He needs to have to deal with debt himself.

Get the house and all the assets transferred into your name

This wont stop him from being awarded half in case of a divorce. It wont stop the bailiffs coming round either.

You taking control is not the answer. (I tried it). All the responsibility is then on you, he's infantilised & there's no equality. And anyway, if he's shit with money he'll find ways around any limits you put in place.

This. Over the years I've watched my mother try to manage my father's spending and debts. It has made her ill. It has drastically reduced her quality of life. She's good with money and should have had a comfortable old age. Instead there is this continual, perpetual struggle to make ends meet. It's horrible to watch and I cannot imagine how godawful it is to live like that and to think that you are shackled to someone who drags you down.

I'd tell him he either gets therapy and professional help managing money or you will divorce him, and mean it. And if this were still going on once the children were through school, I'd walk and wouldn't look back. As flaws go, it's huge. It can entirely affect your health and happiness and eventually there is very little love left, just festering resentment.

Can you change his credit card limit to £75?

It’s difficult, because there’s lots to to be grateful for if he’s a good husband and father. No such thing as the perfect husband (or wife!). I don’t think I’d divorce him over this, and would just insist he gets therapy. But ultimately you’re living with the situation day after day, so I think there may come a time when you have had enough and you will know it’s the end of the road.

You say that apart from the money issue he is a great husband but great husbands are not liars, selfish or deceitful.

You’ve given him many chances and bailed him out. It’s time he took control of his spending habit and take responsibility.

I could possibly have forgiven the first time of debt but he’s making a mug out of you now and it’s a vicious circle. He spends, you bail him out , he spends, you bail him out.

I wouldn’t live like that.

When dh and I got together I told him that I wouldn’t tolerate lies, cheating or debt!

OP , you mentioned you've been on a ten month sober streak and just put the unopened bottle of wine back in the cupboard .

I'm unsure as to whether you mean you'd decided to become tea total or whether you had a problem with drink ? I'm not having a go by any means , I just wondered that if it's the latter , did it also cause problems in your marriage in addition to your husband's spending ?

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Trouble is, he's legally well and truly an adult and credit will always be available to him one way or another. Only he can take control of this. All your efforts are being sabotaged. This is not what someone who loves you would do.

Will he go to couples counselling with a money focus? This issue will finish you if it continues. It finishes lots of marriages. Does he realise the risk he's taking and what the impact of his continual lies and secrecy is doing to your feelings for him? He needs to know. There is help to be had if he wants to change.

You have taken control and it sounds like you have designed the budget? It isn't adequate or realistic for an average adult. But he lies and takes on more credit. That's why there is so little. If he didn't lie, stopped buying bike parts and lived with his means they would BOTH have more spending money every month. HE spends the majority of it, behind her back!

I'm not having a go by any means , I just wondered that if it's the latter , did it also cause problems in your marriage in addition to your husband's spending ? I wondered if she did it as a way of hiding yet more of her cutting back on things she likes!

He spent money you don't have on his hobby, the bikes, and when you found out he went out with his mates to ride the bike while you sat at home with the children, an unopened bottle of wine, taking advice from MN about debt charities he could use. Does not sound to me like he feels remorse.

Whatever he says, those actions last night show he feels no actual shame. If he were ashamed he wouldn't be able to look at the bikes.

Finding £75 is easily possible. Part time job for him at the weekend/evening at the supermarket or whatever. I'm guessing he won't even suggest it never mind do it.