To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

My only tip would be to not think of him as having ants in his pants or having lots of personality and start dealing with him properly when he's annoying or destructive towards others

And your title of ' to not necessarily want a well behaved child' is a bit hmm.

I've re read and he sounds like a bit of a pain tbh. I wouldn't muse on the psychology of it all - put something in place to parent home firmly when he's naughty

There are plenty of well behaved children who have plenty of personality. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

I think there is a middle ground somewhere between your child being crushed into submission vs being an utter pain in the backside. This is where I aim for mine to be.

Yes, I think it's two extremes. I don't like bringing my two out to eat or anything like that that because they are too young and it's not enjoyable. Plus it's not fair on everyone else. When they get a bit older, I'll bring them but they won't be let run wild. I have a friend who doesn't believe in disciplining children and noone wants them in their houses.

OP my children are challenging, boisterous and drive me mad with their not listening. However, they are funny, loving, kind and polite. They are their own people, independent and curious about the world. I don't want a compliant child who does whatever people say without question (although a little more compliance would make my life easier). It is my job to teach them how to navigate the world, reign in their frustration and be empathetic to others. I wouldn't change my cheeky little monsters for the world.

And I agree with PP, i wouldn't take them to a Michelin star restaurant because they are too young and behave like young children.

he sounds like a bit of a pain tbh

I'm not blinded by parental love...he definitely is a bit of a pain! I'm afraid that when he's at school he'll get told off by the teachers a few times (who will be totally supported by us, btw). But we weren't pains when we were little and it hasn't added to our happiness at all. By contrast, one of my cousins was always a right pain in the arse as a child, up to lots of mischief, didn't care if he was yelled at....he's now a lovely outgoing funny guy who is very successful in what he does with lots of friends.

He can be the leader of a group because he is naughty and a ring leader, or he can be a leader of a group because he is kind, charismatic and inspirational. If you currently cannot take him to a toddler group I suggest he is in the first camp, try and move him into the second.

My children could sit and have a meal. They ran wild in the park. The were polite to people, and rude to each other(still are as teens) They fought with each other, but kind to friends.

There’s places they can be themselves and places there’s an expectation.

OP you need to step up and parent because a naughty child doesn’t get party invites or play date and you’ll be on a sloppy slope at school.

I think there's a balance to be had. I appreciate you not wanting the same childhood for your son, I had similar, however there has to be some conforming to enable him to participate in normal social situations.
Letting him run wild to the point you cant attend any more is crazy. How will he know how to behave once at school? Or will you leave thst to the poor teacher?
As a parent you need to use boundaries, otherwise you'll find you can never go any where with him or he'll never get invited to play dates and parties.

I would also add, if no SEN, then it’s very much your parenting rather than the child and other parents know this.

My ds is very well behaved and I get a lot of compliments on his behaviour and attitude. He is not shy, he doesn't cling on to my coat tails, he stands up for his friends and what he believes in and yes he does do some things wrong but not deliberately.
I think you need to look closely at your parenting because in an effort to avoid an upbringing like your own, you are raising a child with no boundaries, and that will have a far greater consequence later in life.

I have a friend who doesn't believe in disciplining children and noone wants them in their houses.

We believe very much in disciplining! We speak very firmly, give warnings, do time outs, remove from the situation, strap in the pushchair if he runs off...It's just that DS doesn't seem to be cowed into submission by it the same way I would have been as a child.

Well how old is he? Because he sounds as if he’s a bit young to be able to “take him anywhere”. None of my kids have been angels as toddlers, my two year old is a toy throwing maniac at the moment. But with consistent parenting they grow up, settle down, and you can take them anywhere. They do get complimented on their beautiful behaviour/ are no trouble at school, but they definitely started out running around when they should be listening/ climbing things / one was been a biter for a short period 😩

So be calm and consistent, and hopefully he’ll grow up and learn the boundaries. I don’t think you do want a kid who has no respect for boundaries, that really is a rod for your own back - and no good for them because society has boundaries, doesn’t it?

Your post could be interpreted as you trying to convince yourself of this to justify your child's behaviour.

I dont believe in the "children should be seen and not heard" school of parenting, but I certainly did not encourage my child to do things for a reaction or laugh at inappropriate behaviour. He may have lots of friends at the moment, but it may be the case that parents steer their children away from yours as they dont want him to encourage their own child's behaviour.

I'd be looking less at using him as a social experiment and more into finding the balance you mention. Sparky and sociable, good , "can't take him anywhere " - unless he has SN, I'd be embarrassed too.

Oh. He’s ‘spirited’ is he? Read: PITA for everyone else...

I was well behaved as a kid and didn’t sit quietly in the shadows. I explored and was creative and noisy at times but I also wasn’t an arsehole. There’s a balance to be struck and it comes from parenting.

I presume he behaves better at nursery because there are rules and boundaries that he is expected to keep to.

You need to be setting boundaries now before he starts school or else he is going to find life hard.
Other children are probably happy to play with 'the naughty child' but their parents don't like having them to play dates and parties. You may find that you as a family get less invitations too if your child hasn't been taught to behave properly and respect other people's houses etc.

Of course you can encourage your child to develop their own personality and keep their confidence, without allowing them to be a pain in the neck. Encourage good manners and a consideration for others. But children want and need boundaries.

It’s about circumstances. He sounds like an absolutely normal nursery aged child. It’s your job to teach him that it’s ok to ket off steam in a park, woods, at home in garden...but that we need to be really quiet and still and listening in say, the doctor’s waiting room, Great Granny’s house, a restaurant. If he doesn’t comply you explain again, offer a reward if you like, and if still noisy and uncontrollable, take him out and try again another time. Keep trying - that is how he will learn to modify behaviour. Of course no child can sit still and quiet indefinitely, and you need to know his limits and praise him for effort whilst recognising that there will be some situations he’s not ready for.
And yes, some children are naturally obedient and impeccably behaved, it doesn’t mean their parents are doing anything wrong. There’s nothing wrong with either type of child.

@mumonthehill

He can be the leader of a group because he is naughty and a ring leader, or he can be a leader of a group because he is kind, charismatic and inspirational. If you currently cannot take him to a toddler group I suggest he is in the first camp, try and move him into the second.

This - being disruptive isn't a personality trait!

My sister me too i think but it feels weird to comment on my own personality is a hilarious, charming, successful woman with lots of friends. We were expected to behave as children. There were tellings off and punishments and naughty steps and boundaries, and there was also so much praise and love and support and comfort.

The answer to your worry isn't to never tell him off. The fact that his bad behaviour embarrasses you and has limited your experiences already proves that. The answer is to discipline him in a way that doesn't crush his spirit, with empathy and understanding and love. Don't let him grow up to be a bolshy bully.

There’re differences between being well behaved and being submissive and / or fearful. I have friends/family who state that they want their DC to be “cheeky”, “naughty’, “sassy”, “confident” etc.

Spending time with them as a family/the DC isn’t enjoyable!

I can totally empathise with you OP. Since you asked for advice, I would agree about avoiding challenging situations (like restaurants until your child has more emotional intelligence (which seems to develop from around age 3 onwards). When your child is able to engage in meaningful conversations, you can start to encourage them to adjust their behaviour by helping them see things from other people's perspective. It doesn't need to involve blame or guilt.

My kids are very well behaved, never had a tantrum, do ad they’re told first time etc.
But they have plenty of personality and banter. Your child just sounds plain naughty.

@HeyDuggeesCakeBadge a little more compliance would make my life easier.

Yes, it's that...if DS was more compliant, it would make my life a lot easier. And we do come down hard on unacceptable behaviour, like feet on tables, bothering others, throwing food etc. Also, since apparently he behaves fine at nursery, I'm sure he'll be clever enough to realise what he can and can't get away with at school and conform sufficiently. But what I'm not sure about is that very compliant children necessarily have the easiest time of it later on in life...that's not been my experience. Though it's much nicer for the parents, obviously.

My younger DD (now 8) is also not cowed, it just means I work a but harder to make a point to her. It takes more transgressions, more timeouts, more removing treats etc for her to stop doing something.