To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

You don't mention how old your DS is, and that is hugely relevant. From your comments I would guess he is about 3. At 3 I would say this is pretty normal, and even when he starts school in foundation he won't be expected to sit quietly at his desk. They will spend the first year getting the children used to the structure and rules.

However it sounds like your expectations are not age appropriate. Running round in circles at a toddler group is normal toddler behaviour. Every toddler activity I have attended is completely accepting of this and it's fine for the DC to alternate between running round the room and joining in with the activity.

Running round the room is not a reason to stop attending toddler groups. If your DS is frequently hitting and biting other children, that would be a reason not to attend.

So unless your DS behaviour is actually worse than what you have said here, I think your own standards need a bit of adjustment. If your child gets too boisterous when out you need to find ways to help him calm down. Eg take him to a quiet place for a few minutes for cuddles or look at a favourite toy, blow bubbles.

I think you're comparing different ages of child - adults do this a lot, project their memories of being school-age onto toddlers ('I always sat quietly in restaurants' they say, looking at a three year old and remembering themselves aged 10). I doubt you had the strong sense of disappointing your parents etc that you describe at age 2, you didn't have a developed enough sense of self and other people (which is also why you can't remember it). Children also tend to perceive themselves as better behaved than the adults around them do - we're all better at remembering the times we felt hard-done to than the ones where we were in the wrong. Similarly, never listen to anyone with adult children who tells you their children never misbehaved - rose-tinted spectacles do a lot here!

There are plenty of well behaved children who have plenty of personality. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

Exactly this. And for most NT children it's just a mix of personality and parenting, the % of which will vary. If he behaves at nursery then it sounds like he knows he can get away with it around you, things like running around at the toddler group to the point you no longer take him demonstrates that.

Also, behaviour is very situation dependent. DS (2) is great at going out for a meal, as long as we pick something that comes quite quickly, because he's (frankly) quite greedy. He looks like a little angel while he sits quietly waiting for the food he's been promised, less so in other settings when he's whinging endlessly for a snack...

When mine were that age I avoided the sort of toddler groups that expected them to sit still and join in with the singing, as they wouldn't have joined in.

This too. I had one DC who loved classes and joined in nicely and has never had a tantrum, this DC still loves organised clubs/activities and still doesn't have tantrums but this is all down to personality type rather than parenting as they're very laid back in general. Two of my DC didn't enjoy structured groups/classes and wouldn't join in but did like the more informal playgroups where it's a pile of toys in one corner and paint and a sandpit in the other and you just play however you like. Another of my DC didn't like any classes, structured or informal, and spent most of their toddlerhood running around either the park or the beach.

You say you use sanctions for poor behaviour, but do you also do reward for good behaviour?

I don’t necessarily mean material reward or other treats, but lavish praise for doing as you have asked, and telling other adults within his hearing about how good he has been, e.g. “Granny, Billy was such a good boy today. He listened carefully to (playleader’s) instructions and had such a lovely time. Playleader told him he was so clever for listening so well” and then Granny joins in, repeats the whole thing, promises to tell Grandad etc...

My DS was a delight for grandparents, auntie, nursery, school, in cafes (apart from the not eating a damn thing...), the champion of the underdog ... and a terrible stroppy opinionated and argumentative horror at home. He’s now 29, very successful and has a family of his own and many lovely friends.

I attribute almost all of this to luck, but some of it to persisting with ensuring he was considerate to others.

Hi. I know what you mean as I was far too quiet and shy (seen and not heard) and I was very anxious as a child. Everyone said how well behaved I was, but I think I was very controlled. Too controlled. I see my daughter with ADHD (age 12) and whilst she is extremely difficult to take out, I admire her for not being too anxious to do what she wants. This can be a problem (!) but I still admire that trait. I was far too dumbed down and scared of any comeback or comment from an adult. It isn't necessarily bad behaviour, but the courage to speak up and explore. I see a lot of children in my work and I see some very 'well behaved' children in fear of their parents, and I think they should be able to be more free. It depends on what people consider to be good behaviour or just being kids.

To add to my previous post there is an age at which not having boundaries becomes a real problem, beginning about age 6 I would say. My DS has a friend who has very sweet, kind, creative etc but has been brought up with virtually no discipline. I am afraid I now avoid inviting this child to parties, the park etc as it's just too difficult to deal with him, he can't be trusted no to do stupid/dangerous things and it's like having a preschooler. He doesn't listen to polite requests and gets upset if I threaten punishments as he is not used to it. So unfortunately he now missed out on things.

I understand what you mean and I agree to an extent. I think manners and children listening to parents/trusted adults and following instructions is very important, both to form them as decent members of society and from a safety aspect. I would loosen up a little on how I was brought up but not to the extent of creating unruly children. I also went to a faith school and very much took the ethics I was taught there to heart - which is great in terms of being compassionate and a decent human being, but not so great when it comes to standing up for yourself and just being passive.

I think that was just me and my personality in part. My daughter is very good at listening and doing as she's told at the age of three. She's great in restaurants and social or public settings and always has been. We've never had a supermarket meltdown and I can only recall one time she kicked up a fuss about getting her buggy in coffee shop when it was time to leave. She saves that behaviour for us at home! I'm pretty sure it's nothing we've fostered, it's just her personality. Some children are just more inclined to tow the line than others. It's a difficult balance to keep some their spark and raise a well behaved child at times.

Sorry, I’ve read everyone’s comments and found them very interesting, but can’t respond to them all.

@itsgettingweird. Thank you for sharing this. I was very like this too when I was a child and it affected me for a long time.

@blissfulllife. Yes, I think this is why I’m reluctant to see ‘I can take them anywhere’ as being the hallmark of good parenting. It makes life much easier for the parents, though.

@Chickoletta What do you do when he runs around and disrupts the music session?
I tell him no, and if that doesn’t work, physically restrain him on my lap. If he keeps doing it, we leave the session. That’s essentially why we stopped going…we were leaving more sessions than we attended.

@Bluntness100. I’m not trying to backtrack, I promise... In my eyes (and I know I’m biased) DS is lovely, funny, sweet, kind. He’s never hit or bitten and I can count on one hand the times he’s pushed another child. We don’t tolerate nasty behaviour towards other children - he gets removed, told off and made to apologise. But….I’m not deluded enough to think he’s well-behaved or that we're particularly good parents. What we’re not so strict on (and perhaps we should be) is the sitting quietly at mealtimes or to read or do activities and the staying by our side and not going off exploring (unless it’s near a road or in a dangerous situation, in which case he gets strapped in the buggy if he doesn’t listen and hold hands). Also, DS will do things like deliberately turn over the paint water, play with his cars really loudly on the floor when he knows we prefer him to be quieter, make a mess with his toys, turn out the laundry box, snatch biscuits and have a tantrum when it's time to leave the playground. None of which are really acceptable, but we tend to let them go too much.

@Fishypants. This mirrors my experience 100%. It’s those who were somewhat boisterous and exuberant at school (and maybe not the teachers' favourites) who seem to do best later on in life.

Sorry didn’t mean to post there. One of my dcs is naturally really compliant and easy, would never bolt and would be naturally cautious. As parents of one, very easy child we were privately thinking it was because of us...so we were very delusional.
That all changed with number two who was totally the opposite, would run off, climb everything, disappear the minute we took our eyes off him and it didn’t matter what we did! We are firm and consistent .
I cringe so much when I hear parents of one, easy child go on about how “chilled” their child is because they are “chilled” and they have firm boundaries. I think a huge percent of it is nature.
I will say though my parents were really strict and we sat through church services of over two hours and would have been afraid to move a muscle...I also have family in France and the schools there are way more old school in outlook and parents are a lot stricter , I have often seen children get hit over there and guess what?! They all sit for really, long meals and it’s not just because they are used to it at school.
Some kids are naturally docile by nature and when you have one it’s so easy to lecture on it being all about your methods and boundaries. The bolter thing is really a good example for us, we had my friend lecture us on the fact that one of ours wouldn’t hold our hands and kept running off as if it was all our fault. If he tries running off near a road he goes back into a buggy ( every time) or we pick him up (every time) , he still does it every time and he will.not.hold.hands, I can forcibly hold his hands but it means a very tight grip that does hurt him as he’s pulling away all the time. So I bring him to open spaces like beaches where he can run free as I think it’s natural and normal to want to blow off steam, me and my dh love exercise so wouldn’t like to be still for long periods either.
My kids are really well behaved, have never been in trouble even once in school and playschool etc but they are all hugely energetic and no that’s not a code word for badly behaved. They aren’t going to sit still for hours at a dinner table because they physically can’t, tbh even school is an issue as they are so well behaved there we actually need to take them for a good long run /cycle etc after as they have so much pent up energy after.
I really wish more physical time and exercise time was factored into school tbh.
Unfortunately energetic kids and ones who basically are more into exercise when young are viewed as “naughty “ in my opinion.
I remember being at a story time with my 18 month old and getting looks as he wouldn’t sit still , like wtf?! I didn’t bother with activities where we’d get judged and we’d go to places outside where we could blow off steam. Now they can sit and read at home no problem. Look at monkeys in a zoo , they move constantly or any other baby animals! It’s totally natural and shouldn’t be frowned at. Got it again this weekend off friends ( without kids and one with a newborn who doesn’t move obviously) as they were looking at the kids jumping on the trampoline and climbing the tree stuff we made for them in the back ( they were in no way causing trouble)
“ oh , they never stop moving “, “ do they ever get tired” , like all said negatively and comments on how “ chilled “ their one baby is 😂

You can get a well-behaved child without anger. My kids don't do shitty things and it's not because of any threat. They just figured out quite quickly shitty things are shitty. They don't 'run off' or 'do stupid things for attention'. They know it's unsafe, and obnoxious. They also recoil when they see other children do these things, so that helps - they know the behaviour is undesirable because they dislike witnessing it themselves.

Anyway, this means I don't suffer from "I can't take my kids anywhere" syndrome that you see sometimes, where people can't visit restaurants anymore or their kids make holidays stressful as they have to tick off all the places they can't go because the kids will be bored and naughty. It means by 7 or 8, you've got nice little companions you can go anywhere with. It means parenting isn't tough or stressful. They enjoy adventurous activities and trying new things, so it doesn't make them reluctant or shy.

However they are still both very keen to stand up for themselves and note any injustice or sense of unfairness (my daughter, for example, is fond of imbalancing a shared chore, for example - a subtle misbehaviour but one that can be easily discussed). Their behaviour lends itself to contemplation and concentration; they still have the opportunity to enjoy life without hurling food across a café.

Sorry, should say DS is 2 and 8 months.

I think a lot of how very young children behave is down to personality and temperament.

My DS was a complete whirlwind under the age of 5 yrs. I couldn’t really take him anywhere and get him to ‘behave’. He was the ‘naughty’ kid at toddler groups, he couldn’t sit through a meal out, was always on the go and got tired/had meltdowns frequently. DD, on the other hand, just somehow ‘got’ social rules from the word go and was always polite and well behaved without any fuss, despite being quite a sociable and strong willed child (certainly not a wallflower). They were honestly like night and day.

They’re teenagers now and both well mannered, fundamentally good kids. I wish I hadn’t stressed about DS so much when he was little. It just took him a bit longer than some kids to settle down and basically to ‘comply’ with social norms. He’s an amazing thinker and very creative and free spirited as a young man, he has just learned to channel it now.

but we tend to let them go too much.

I think there’s your answer @OneStepAheadOfTheToddler!

Consistency is key. He doesn’t sound like a bit of a pain () to me! He sounds like your average toddler!

Mine are well-behaved and have several personalities between them! 😬

BUT...the big thing for us was drawing the line on what we deemed as unacceptable. So, if you say “play quietly on the rug” and he’s old enough to understand that and go out of his way not to do it, then the cars come off him. That’s it. One warning and they’re gone.

Same for anything else you’re not happy with.

But honestly, he doesn’t sound half bloody bad!

To clarify, the home behavior is throwing a tantrum about something she has to do or isn't allowed to. She always still does as she is told, just with a lot of complaint at times!

He sounds fine. Hes a toddler. I also find slightly spirited children are often more creative and interesting, but as you say, its a balance.
Fact is, children are not all the same just as adults arent, and we parent them according to what we find most important and want to prioritise.
For some people thats compliance and for others they just might not put the same value on that, and some children are just not naturals with hierarchy and authority and short of beating it into them, you do have to work with what youve got and pick your battles. It doesnt, in my experience have that much in connection with how somebody is as an adult and how well they do in life.

I also have family in France and the schools there are way more old school in outlook and parents are a lot stricter , I have often seen children get hit over there and guess what?! They all sit for really, long meals and it’s not just because they are used to it at school.

Yes, I could probably get DS to sit still if I hit him . The couple of times I've lost it completely with him (running away near roads), he's been pretty quiet afterwards.

To add, though it’s unpopular here 2.8 is still very young! Yes teach him of course but it’ll be at least a year before some of these things stick! Allowances need to be made.

The feet on table thing though - table manners was something we were adamant about because we like to go out a lot on weekends for lunches for example and we refused to have one of those little shits who runs around destroying the place and harassing customers 😂.

We did it with a LOT of distractions, warnings, and occasionally resorted to a device. I know that makes me the worst mother ever on here but I don’t care! From the age of four all three could sit nicely and chat to us, colour etc, enjoy our meal and leave calmly.

I understand what you mean OP, I was like you as a child too I barely spoke a word for fear of the consequences and I grew up with no confidence. I’m the complete opposite with my own children, they're sociable, happy and confident as a result. I wouldn’t allow them to behave ‘badly’ they would understand they’d be punished depending on the severity, but I don’t control them the way I was they have a lot more freedom to be themselves.
There’s nothing to be embarrassed about if DS has ‘ants in his pants’ it’s normal behaviour for small children, but guiding them and etiquette is the important part. A lot of it is parenting imo, children feed off of their parents so if you’re happy and relaxed they will be, but if you’re on edge and anxious they’ll notice. They change so much as they grow up so you might find this is his personality, or he may be completely different in a few years, but he sounds like a regular inquisitive boy to me.

Have a look at the RIE method of parenting. You don't have to follow it to the letter (obviously...) but I found for me it strikes exactly the right balance between having boundaries but not being overly authoritarian.

I fell into a lot of "gentle parenting" etc when DS1 was little because the non-conflict nature of it appealed to me but since he's got older (and he is in no way terrible) I have realised that I actually have been quite conflict-avoidant and that hasn't especially served him or me very well. But any time I tried to look for information about how to enforce boundaries in a way I was comfortable with, all I found was a load of "Show them who's boss!!" which I don't think is right and am not comfortable with at all. RIE seems to be the nice in between where it's not taboo to have boundaries (like it can be sometimes on gentle parenting websites) but it's also encouraged to look past the behaviour to the emotion etc. I find it a very useful primer on WHY having boundaries is useful and HOW to enforce boundaries in a respectful way when it doesn't come naturally to me.

Janet Lansbury uses the RIE philosophy and has a great facebook page, blog and free podcast (all of which is transcripted on her website).

I’m with you, well behaved people never make history.

Your toddler sounds bright, life loving and fun, that’s brilliant . I think the line is when your child’s freedom gets in the way of other people. So climbing in a park is fine but scaling a friends expensive TV isn’t ok. Screaming in a busy park is fine but it’s not ok in a restaurant. Teach your child they’re as important as everyone else and to have empathy and they’ll be fine.

Maybe you have an outdoor child, could you arrange to meet some other mums with lively toddlers in the park and then they can run themselves to a good nap.

We expect kids to sit still before it’s possible, the Scandinavians let their kids run wild and their kids are happier and better adjusted than British kids.

I’m with you, well behaved people never make history

What a stupid comment. Just another sad excuse people make for their children’s poor behaviour.

Scandinavians don’t have the British entitled and self I rumgeht attitude behind them which is why their parenting can be more relaxed and their kids then out ok. Have you ever been to Scandinavia? I grew up there and Scandinavians are a very compliant people in general, that’s how their society works.

He's not naughty, he can't help it

That depends. A child doing naughty things for attention, and receives that attention, will up their game for it. Adults laughing at silly behavior will encourage that behavior.

They don’t get that attention at school and will push boundaries to get attention. Because they don’t know any other way of receiving it.

Praise good behavior, ignore the naughty behavior, even if you want to laugh, do it away from the child.

I think you probably do want to have a well behaved child, though I think your experience of being a well behaved child was a bad one. You were well behaved because you were scared of the reaction or punishment if you didn’t. I can relate, I too was a well behaved child as I was fearful of the response as any punishment for not behaving the way my DM wanted was extreme. I would be screamed & shouted at and punished severely for a minor foot out of line.

With my own child she is well behaved mostly (not always, she is human after all) though I don’t shout or scream at her. She will get punished if needed by taking privileges away if poor behaviour is consistent. I try to explain to her that these things are up to her, good behaviour is effectively rewarded and consistently poor behaviour results in her loosing out on things she enjoys. It seems to work with her but this obviously doesn’t work for every child and it’s different at varying ages. I definitely want my child to be well behaved but I also don’t have an interest in forcing my child into certain situations, as a child we would be told children should be seen & not heard and be expected to sit quietly in restaurants, etc. Making my child sit in silence while I enjoy a meal isn’t my idea of a good time but each to their own.

My DB on the other hand does subscribe to this idea of fear. DN doesn’t misbehave at all when DB is present but when he is on his own with his DM he is very badly behaved, I think because she & my DB don’t agree on the discipline style she tends not to tell him off at all because DB is so extreme in his tellings off. We had an incident where my DC & DN were playing with water guns outside and water was sprayed into the house through an open window (as in a wide open window, not that the window was a jar and it was don’t purposefully) my DB asked who did it and both children denied it. Turns out of was my DC she was trying to hit DN with water as he ran past the window and water went inside. My DB was very stern with her for telling a lie and not admitting she did it straight away. She laughed nervously and he got very stern with her. Her whole demeanour changed, head down and very solemn. This isn’t what I would want to instill in my child. It was short lived and they went back to playing. I asked DB if he felt happy now he has scared her, he seemed to think it was funny and said they all need a bit of fear to do what they’re told. I said maybe in future he shouldn’t give water guns to children to play with in the garden and leave windows wide open? He laughed and said “so it’s my fault then?” I said yes, I would think so.

Everyone has different views on how to parent but I think getting your child to comply by making them scared of any alternative isn’t good for anyone.