To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

I get where you're coming from...sort of!

OP, it's not that 'they must'. It's just nice when you come across DC who do those good things (and annoying when you come across the few who are particularly irritating).

It's all about behaving appropriately in different situations. There are lots of different ways of doing that, dependent on personality, experience and preference.

@Cacacoisfarraige no worries!

Oops, pressed the wrong button!

I have three children. The eldest is, and always has been impeccably behaved whilst out in public, at nursery and school etc. She can be a bit of a madam at home now she's going through puberty, but you get the picture.

Middle child is a bit of a mare at home and in public unless she's in a very good mood. I have long suspected ASD or similar. She's always been well behaved at school or nursery though.

Youngest is a live wire and very energetic. They loved him at nursery but he's always in trouble at school. They did suspect ASD at nursery but this was never followed up. I have my suspicions re ADHD but school reluctant to implement any of my suggestions (I'm a teacher and many of these have helped chn I've taught). He gets into a lot of mischief at home but is a delight one-to-one.

What I will say though, regardless of behaviours at home and in public, one thing I can absolutely depend upon is my children behaving themselves in a restaurant. They've got very good table manners and know that the rules about eating out. We've been complimented on their behaviour in restaurants on many occasions.

So what I'm saying is that I don't think behaviour in restaurants etc is directly related to behaviour in public elsewhere. If this is your end goal then you need to set very firm boundaries from the start and get him used to doing the right thing, with lots of praise when he does.

Knowing how and when to interject yourself into a conversation is really hard. Loads of adults don't have this skill, I've had times where I've struggled to make new friends and been told I need to be more proactive and approach people and strike up conversations - I really don't have the charm to pull it off yet for others it seems easy

Yes, I think knowing 'how to' inerject and instigate conversation smoothly is much harder than knowing when not to.

There are also people of all ages who think they have this skill when they really don't.

With dd I'm working on what I thought would be 'don't interrupt' but is actually 'when and how to interrupt' and turns out to be really quite complicated!

It is complicated and I'll also add that some people are poor at conversion in general, for example those who are so quiet its like getting blood from a stone and those who can only monologue about something vaguely on topic rather than do back and forth.

This - really interesting - digression on interrupting and conversation skills reminded me of a conversation I once overheard at soft play, where a woman was talking about her maybe 6 year old. She was bitterly complaining that her DD had been punished at school for grabbing another girl by her pigtails and holding her in place because her DD had done it because the other girl wasn't listening to her 'and it's just basic manners to listen to people when they're talking to you and we've always really emphasised manners so of course Amelia got cross that Sophie was being so rude'. The woman she was talking to clearly didn't know what to say and I was sat there like this . However, it's a good reminder that parents aren't always the best judge of their children's behaviour - I think that woman would totally comment on a thread saying how amazingly well-behaved her DD was because they'd instilled manners from an early age!

Hah! The 'gaining the other person's attention before you start saying what you want to say' part of conversation is often overlooked! (By adults but particularly by DC who are used to chattering away in their parents' proximity and usually being listened to - or thinking they are).

I agree that it's really hard to know when, how and if to interrupt conversation. I think zoos and museums often lend themselves to collective viewing situations where a stranger responding to a question is justified in a way that it wouldn't be if you were sat at the next table in a cafe or in front of them on the bus for example. But, conversation skills are so complex and, again, it's so tricky to get that right balance between being confident but not rude or arrogant.

I don’t mind dc striking up conversations with people on trains and buses. DD had a great conversation with a complete stranger, in Italian, on the vaporetto no 1 going down the Grand Canal in Venice. You can learn from others in all sorts of situations.

Ndn kids are the most disrespectful, rude and annoying kids I have ever met! I think I prefer a balance. My kids are generally well behaved and I let them run riot at home BUT if their behaviour Impacts another I will intervene.

E.gwhen youngest born the ndn family ALL turned up to my home. Baby was probably 2/3 days old. Their kids were going through my cupboards! Helped themselves to my biscuits and got crumbs all over carpet. My eldest was looking on in horror as she knows we don’t eat without plates. To note this was first time ever they cane to my home they had only recently moved in. Parents made zero effort to discipline the kids. They left and I was in shock. Had it been me I’d be mortified. They didn’t even attempt to get kids to clean up the crumbs. Or clean up themselves. I had new baby and other children if my own to look after and not got time.

I’m sure the ndn kids will grow up with lots of happy memories as will my kid’s obviously but everyone talks about how little discipline they have and I mean everyone on street. I nod in sympathy when the mother tells me her mil and both mum think she’s too easy in kids. I make right noises and tell her she’s doing a wonderful job but I totally agree with her mil n mum! Kids need routine, they need discipline, they need to know difference between right and wrong. Your child sounds very young so you won’t see impact yet but wait till he’s older. Why not find middle ground like myself and have ground rules and consequences of breaking rules but same time give him freedom to express himself.

The well behaved child is a sort of holy grail for a lot of parents, particularly those who like to bask in the reflected light of them. All children are different, with different levels of sensitivity to discipline. You just have to make the decision for yourself and don’t fall into the trap of living by the ideals of (sanctimonious) others. For me the question was always, do you want to raise a child who does as he’s told or thinks for himself?

@Hardbackwriter . That story is both shocking and hilarious . And shows how we can disagree fundamentally as parents on what's important.

@Inwiththenew

The well behaved child is a sort of holy grail for a lot of parents, particularly those who like to bask in the reflected light of them. All children are different, with different levels of sensitivity to discipline. You just have to make the decision for yourself and don’t fall into the trap of living by the ideals of (sanctimonious) others. For me the question was always, do you want to raise a child who does as he’s told or thinks for himself?

I think the question you ask is the problem here. Its not one or the other. My reply would be DC who know when they need to do as they are told and can think for themselves when thats appropriate. Its not starkly black or white. I always found that teaching my DC that there is boring stuff you sometimes have to do worked well. They just got on with it whilst all the " no one tells my child" parents were railing over stupid stuff . A waste of energy and the "get on with it" DC used their energy learning and getting better grades

It's an important balance to strike. My DD used to throw the most epic tantrums between 18 months and 3, before she started preschool she was very boisterous, used to hit and push other toddlers in soft play type of thing But that didn't last, she behaved lovely at preschool and all through school. We did discipline her, though not to great effect in those toddler tantrum days. She has retained confidence and is still very active and boisterous at almost 12! We have a good relationship where if she shows she can be trusted, she gets increasing amount of freedom to go out alone with her friends.
My friend never disciplines her children, I mean never, the typical free-range parenting style, but she won't trust them (the secondary aged DC) to go out alone and do normal teen stuff, so that's a bit weird, and my DC are more social and outgoing even though I've probably cracked down harder discipline wise.

Wow, I agree about differing levels of sensitivity in DC, but I'm not sure I'd want to be raised by someone who automatically ascribes such low motives to "some" parents who just want their DC to have basic good manners. There is so much emphasis nowadays on "self-confidence, self-fulfillment, self-care" which is all good, but I sometimes wonder if the pendulum hasn't swung too far the other way and we need to start thinking and teaching DC about "others" a bit more. After all, in every single adult relationship in life whether romantic, familial or professional, you need to learn to be able to compromise and put others first sometimes, or in the case of parenting, a lot of the time.

Also, totally agree about wanting children to be able to think for themselves but I do think they need to be taught the basic guidelines first. More than anything though, the parent needs to model good behaviour rather than talk about it. And that includes not automatically assuming the worst of people who are usually just doing their best in sometimes difficult circumstances.

My teen for example is going through a (hopefully normal) adolescent phase where she can be quite selfish frankly and, I'll admit it, a bit hard work at home. However, even when she is not using her pre-frontal cortex to make decisions as an adult would, the fact that she was taught basic good manners as a child means that, although she is far from perfect, she is able to be reasonably polite and helpful and rub along with others out in the real world. I am pleased about this, not for strange selfish reasons about "reflected glory" but I'm pleased for her because it will hopefully mean she can enjoy satisfying friendships and go on to be able to rub along with people professionally too.

And before anyone assumes otherwise, yes, if I had one, I'd teach a boy to be helpful too.

Me and my brothers were all naughty kids. Parents were called into school on numerous occasions. We've all gone on to have high flying careers, probably for the same reasons we were in trouble as kids. Critical thinking the majority of the time.

My daughter is now a lot like me. I try to react differently to the adults in my life as a child by channeling all of the energy in a positive direction, rather than angry about it, because anger breeds anger.

Boisterous kids like to test boundaries. My daughter loves climbing for this reason. So I take her as much as possible to places where it is relatively safe to climb without bothering anyone. Then once that is out her system, she's more likely to settle in a group setting, e.g a family meal.

I think the bit about extroversion vs introversion and it being easier in certain cultures for children to be seen as behaving well, based on simply their natural personality, is a crucial one OP!

My DS2 is much more of an introvert, certainly in comparison to DS1 and was an "easy" child, but in reality- was that just that our culture rewards quiet, less boisterous behaviour?