To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

I have 3 children 7,5 and 1 and whilst they are devils at times they do know that there are rules and consequences for their actions, when i was younger my sisters and i didnt say boo to a goose we were constantly told off and told to behave weren't allowed to do anything, so with my children they are allowed some freedom but they know when we are out for meals etc that other people want to enjoy their food in peace and whilst we can do jokes and laugh they are not in a playground and cant behave as such.

My eldest was like your son. We left places because he couldn’t behave, we didn’t eat out for a long time and he was sweet funny and gorgeous but his behaviour wasn’t great.

How did I deal with it? Boundaries and discipline. If he couldn’t behave we left, if he had a tantrum about something I didn’t give in. He was schlepped home so many times. I was very clear with him “I’m the mummy and you are 3/4/5/6” i was not going to have a child who controlled me.

By the way. I never suspected he had SEN, and he doesn’t. He needed routine and I had to stick to it - eat. Sleep, a good run around every day and he was generally much better.

By about 5 he was great and now as a teen in his last year of school he’s the most amazing young man. He’s smart, funny, clever, polite, hardworking, charismatic and popular. It was seriously hard work being his parent in the early days, he didn’t sleep through until he was 4 but o was just really consistent with him and never wavered on what acceptable behaviour was

I have 2 others who were a million times easier, both younger. Again: they know the boundaries and they know where the line is crossed

His behaviour sounds perfectly normal for a 2.8 year old.

But...
It won't be normal, or appreciated, or win him any invites, in 12 months time.
Some of what you describe is absolutely unacceptable. That doesn't mean it's not behaviourally normal! It's in a 2.8 year olds job description to push boundaries. This is where adults step in and guide him. Which you say you do. So, all good. Nursery say he behaves there- so again, he's pushing the boundaries with the people he's closest to, which again is normal.

I removed DD from a group activity at 2.10 years. She was being an absolute PITA. Running round, totally uninterested in the activity and was bordering on disruptive. The leader said "oh no it's not a problem" but I bet they all heaved a sigh of relief when we left!

I had a good friend with a child the same age as DD. Lack of parental boundaries meant the just stopped hanging out with her because what's normal at 3, when it goes on to 5, then 6, becomes tedious for other people.

Don't be afraid to use the word naughty. Don't put it in inverted commas like you don't really think he is being. You do him no favours that way.

"That was a really naughty thing to do" won't scar him for life.

I think the OP has asked for advise. When someone clearly knows there’s a problem and seeks help, that’s good parenting.

He sounds badly behaved and you need to parent before he Becomes that child. Your docility as a child and your unhappiness in colouring your parenting

I can't stand when my DC get hit/bitten by other children. I know it's "normal" toddler behavior but in our case it's only done by DC who's parents aren't consistent with discipline (my sister and my SIL and BIL) once your toddler isn't causing physical harm to my DC then I wouldn't bat an eyelid if he has "ants in his pants".

It's sad that we expect children to behave as mini adults. Your son is acting like a normal child - there is nothing "wrong" with him not being able to sit still. He doesn't have the impulse control yet. This is not him being "naughty" his brain literally isn't developed enough to allow this.

You are doing the right thing by removing him from the situation if he's not ready for it. I would focus on settings where he can "run wild" so to speak and just avoid restaurants etc. until he's ready for them.

By the way Incase anyone thinks I'm a permissive parent who doesn't believe in discipline I have the DC in the first scenario OP described - quiet, compliant, can take them anywhere types - but I don't believe that is the "norm" and I'm not arrogant enough to believe all toddlers should be like that.

@SpeedofaSloth

I think there is a middle ground somewhere between your child being crushed into submission vs being an utter pain in the backside. This is where I aim for mine to be.

Totally agree

It depends on your definition of normal behaviour too. I see people say “oh that’s normal behaviour” on here for things that I think are not normal at all!

There has to be a balance. There's quite a fine line between spirited and lively and being an absolute pain in the neck kid that nobody wants around and misses out on invitations becsuse they are just too much like hard work.

The problem is that boys who don't behave well in school can sometimes end up with worse educational outcomes. They tend to do less work, can end up being popular for the wrong reason and subsequently end up being the kids who 'are not achieving their potential'. I have had many parents in front of me with their bright, smart, popular boys who will not settle down and work properly. The parents are a mix of those who have eventually understood that their kids are now in trouble educationally and those who continue to talk about them being 'picked on' by teachers or needing to be given more positivity. The kids who do well are those who are confident but polite and hard working. They keep their fooling around for out of school and in the playground. There are many, many kids like this.

I've always encouraged thoughtfulness on the part of my children - to work out WHY something might be polite or not polite. They thank people for gifts that perhaps they're not keen on because the gift-giver has tried and had done something nice for them, even if the gift itself isn't desired. They don't run around restaurants because they'd get in the way and someone could get hurt, they don't shout and argue because that's not fair on the people next to us trying to have a nice time.

It helped that we knew people who had children who wouldn't behave and the parents seemed unwilling/unable to tell them off and would laugh it of as 'kids will be kids' no not while your son is using a whole restaurant as some kind of soft play climbing frame and even as older toddlers my DDs could see why we had our rules.

Of course they aren't perfect and get things wrong. We have a set of warnings and then repercussions (with a single chance to redeem). Occasionally I have lost my temper and shouted - I'm also not perfect and get things wrong.

yep @OneStepAheadOfTheToddler afraid ur DS sounds like any other pain in the arse kid whose delusional parents believe their super-special-preciousness doesn't need to listen, follow rules,be respectful and considerate towards others or heaven help us all- their spirit&individualism will be crushed..interested to see how this works out for you down the line ; ) Be thankful you had parents who cared enough to raise you with values and a moral compass instead of blaming them for your perceived character defects now you are a grown-up!

I think I know exactly what you mean OP. School (and many adults/other parents) place a huge emphasis on “compliance”. As a result they favour children that are quiet, obedient and don’’t question authority. Until, that is, they leave home when they expect them to develop into adventurous, creative, risk takers. There’s a disjunct. That isn’t to excuse nasty or rude behaviour but a lot of posters here seem to take the view that your boy is “bad” or “naughty” on very scant evidence. He sounds pretty normal for a toddler to me....

By the by - our daughter is high functioning but was continuously labelled as potentially “autistic” at school. She could do the academic work but struggled with social codes and has never learnt not to question (often quite innocently) authority. We took her to an educational psychologist on the school’s recommendation. When we raised this, his view was that it would be a travesty to try and “stamp out” this element of her personality. After all, it would stand her in good stead as an adult when on occasion, I hope we would all agree, it is not necessarily a good idea to accept the views of our “betters” without question....

I understand your dilemma OP. I was parented in a similar way and DM boasts about what a good child I was. But I don't have a "chilled" personality in any way, so I suffered what I now realise was severe anxiety as a child, and had a bad time as a teen - partly because of an inability to say no to adults - then had a lot of problems in my 20s and 30s. I want to avoid that with my own children. DS is very sensible and well regulated. I've never really had to discipline him. DD on the other hand is a whirlwind, and not a compliant personality at all, although she's very empathetic towards other children. I'm glad she's so strong willed but sometimes it's a challenge. I've found 2 books very helpful: How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk, and No-drama Discipline.

The other thing that strikes me is how we are a sedentary society where a lot of children don't get enough exercise and yet we see toddlers wanting to run about as bad behaviour to be corrected.

OP your original post made your DS sound like a brat, and that you were unwilling to impose any boundaries or discipline.

From your later posts, this is obviously not the case.

I have to say I think some of this comes down to nature/nurture. Some kids are just unwilling to do anything that might break rules, regardless of how they are parented.

I think your approach, and your DSs behaviour sound reasonable and normal.

I always explained to my kids what my expectations were before we went anywhere, adjusted to their ages. I wouldn't take them anywhere where I thought that they weren't ready to behave reasonably. They are late teens now, are lovely independent young adults with their own views and opinions which they can express without being rude. They are kind and thoughtful and generally well mannered - certainly outside of the house 😉

I think it's partly personality.

I have two children, they were always very quiet in public, would stick to my side, rarely make a noise, would sit politely in restaurants, never tear around except in parks or open spaces.Never once got into trouble in school- DD became head girl in her last year at a huge secondary school.

But I never punished, rarely raised my voice, tried to parent in a very gentle way, focussing on the positive.
OH and I are both introverts, not keen on noisy communication or lively groups, so perhaps our children model their behaviour on us.

I don't think I have done anything special, it's partly genetics, partly social conditioning.

Quiet children are not always quiet though fear. Some are just introspective.

The problem is that boys who don't behave well in school can sometimes end up with worse educational outcomes. They tend to do less work, can end up being popular for the wrong reason and subsequently end up being the kids who 'are not achieving their potential'. I have had many parents in front of me with their bright, smart, popular boys who will not settle down and work properly

Have you had any dyslexia training? You describe the perfect storm for dyslexic children. I suggest you look it up and help these kids and stop blaming parents.

boys who don't behave well in school can sometimes end up with worse educational outcomes.

Yes. This is a concern. Self-discipline is crucial for children to reach their potential.

Although the other side of this is that our very sedentary school system doesn't necessarily work well for more active children (not all of whom are boys). In some cases, I'm not sure whether it's the boys themselves or the 'round peg in a square hole' approach. I find the shortage of male teachers concerning. But we're lucky round here to have plenty of good, single-sex options at secondary if this proves a problem, although primary is a concern.

I sort of know what you mean and had a discussion with dh along similar lines yesterday. I think there's a difference between spirit and naughtiness. I want my DC to challenge authority when it's appropriate to do so. Authority is not always correct. But they need to also learn to follow rules, while learning to argue thoughtfully against rules that make no sense. I don't want a couple of people pleasers, but I do want well mannered, polite young people who are not afraid to voice an opinion - even if I, or others, disagree with it. My 3yo dd is a very wilful child. My view is that I shouldn't train that out of her too much - she'll need persistence and fire when she's older.

I was a very well behaved child who could be taken anywhere, as was my DB. My parents are/were lovely. They had high expectations but were not ‘strict’ and we’ve always had a good laugh together. If I made a mistake they would kindly and patiently explain it to me, there was no shaming, threats, loud voices or punishments. It has made parenting my own DC very easy as I have a roadmap to follow. It has been harder for DH who had a different sort of upbringing.

The main difference between my upbringing and DH’s is that ‘being good’ was something he did to avoid punishment and humiliation, with his parents as the enemy. I always wanted to be good purely because it was the right thing to do and saw my parents as helping me to achieve that (even if I didn’t always like it!)

Absolutely, we forgot children are learning about the world by interacting with it, you can’t do that sitting sill. No wonder so many kids are fat and unhappy.

OP your original post made your DS sound like a brat, and that you were unwilling to impose any boundaries or discipline.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be misleading or to drip-feed. It's just that I don't think I'm a perfect parent or that my son is a saint. I'm certainly not strict in the way my parents were strict (or MIL's parents, from discussing the issue with her). Like I said, you could take us anywhere and we'd sit quietly for hours.

BluebellsGreenbells
Thanks I have. Misbehaving and not listening to teachers is not mentioned as being a symptom of dyslexia.

Not every badly behaved child is dyslexic.

And as educators, we do no favours to children with or without dyslexia, to use it as a blanket explanation for poor behaviour.

My (relatively useless) anecdote would be that in 27 years of teaching, I can think of one student with dyslexia who fits the description above. This year in ten classes, not one student with dyslexia would be recognised from the above description.