To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

The behaviour demanded in schools doesn't necessarily translate well into the adult world

I disagree. Schools now teach critical thinking, social skills, communication, speaking and listening skills. They do learning through plays, make videos, art, forest school, sports as well as traditional learning.

Lots of opportunities to grow.

You’ll see there school reports say ‘quiet in class’ it’s not always a compliment!!

@BluebellsGreenbells had worded it perfectly

Good behaviour isn’t necessarily about compliance OP. Some kids/adults behave well because they are kind and thoughtful and want to treat others how they would want to be treated, not because they’re terrified of consequences.

I think the if you can instill in him a kindness and consideration for other people, them the giddiness is fine. When mine were younger I always made sure they realised that they weren't the only person there, and that not everyone would find their loud voices adorable. And that running around in a place where people are trying to work or provide a service is rude and dangerous. I made sure I had suitable activities, snacks, headphones to keep them occupied in cafe's or on public transport.

It isn't easy, and it is easy when trying to correct the mistakes we think our parents made, to make a whole heap of other mistakes all of our own. As long as he is considerate of other people and realises that although he is the centre of your universe, he isn't the centre of anyone else's, I am sure he will be fine.

No. I feel sorry for the children who don't have any deciple from their parents.
I see far too many adult acting as though they can't control their toddlers these days. Little children putting themselves in danger and their parents acting as if there's nothing they can do about it accept chose them about while the child kills themselves laughing.
Breeding a generation of cheeky, entitled future adults.

My mother and aunts tell me I was an extremely well behaved child, didn't throw tantrums, was very easy going.

My son is almost 2 and is extremely short tempered and has tantrums every day. He is also very funny and affectionate.

I don't think it's all down to parenting, children have their own personalities. I choose not to bring my son to restaurants for example because I know he won't behave. However he loves sitting in the trolley going food shopping so I know I can do that with him.

He sounds like my DS. I gave up going to baby and toddler groups at age 2 for precisely that reason! He is boisterous and doesn't listen to us and has to be told eleventy million times a day to flush and wash his hands as he constantly has "better things to do" and rushes around all the time, argues back and thinks he knows best. (At nursery they had to put him in the bigger kids room a little earlier as he was too active and kept "zooming the babies". It wasn't a big nursery; so they actually laid a track of matting on the floor for him to race on 😂 and the manager told me she'd never had a child with so many bumps and she had been googling where to buy a foam helmet for him because he was both clumsy and couldn't slow down!)

But that's just one side of him. His teachers in KS1 now have repeatedly talked about him as quiet and well-behaved and social. His Y2 teacher this year said he was thoughtful and considerate and helpful and described him as quiet and hardworking. Then she asked us if we were ok, because we were gaping at her in shock - and I asked if she'd got the right child! We don't see that, but just because that's how he acts when he's comfortable with us doesn't mean that's how he acts when we're not there I suppose.

So you may find that your experience is similar and boisterous kids can be well behaved for others or in circumstances where it is required, just not when they feel they can push boundaries! DS struggles to sit still for long but can just about manage pizza express (DD in contrast is a few years younger but will happily stay on her seat for an hour while I have a chat with a friend over coffee). But DS is getting better, it's just taking longer. All you can do is keep modelling good behaviour and parenting well and it will come, it's just slower for some than others.

I know exactly what you mean about being too good, DD is always perfectly behaved and sweet and generous (without me doing anything different!), and I do worry deeply that someone will take advantage of her soft heart, hurt her deeply and damage her confidence and mental health. Because as a "good child" myself it happened to me and I was crushed and did not easily recover.

Beware of parenting advice from people who think that their toddlers lack of tantrums is somehow down to their parenting.

My benchmark was always that I wanted my child to be able to undertake age appropriate activities safely and without menacing others. So no, nothing wrong with a 2 year old who doesnt meet the Ritz standard.

Some children like to move around. If he doesnt enjoy singing group (one of mine hated it) then maybe find a class where he can be more active.

Honestly this the responses on this thread are depressing. Talk about the cultural creation of 'naughtiness!'

The 'naughty' behaviour has been created because of the adult commercialisation of play. There is no real need for your two or three year old to go to music classes, or whatever classes they are. Adults have created this sit down shut up 'play' and then label toddlers naughty if they don't fit into it! It's utter madness. Some kids like this sitting down stuff as it suits what is developing in them at that time, others don't. It's no big deal. Look, if he doesn't like sitting down just take him out and do things with him that suit his development stage. He's not naughty, he can't help it - everything inside him is telling him to move as that is what he needs to do now.

My toddler didn't like sitting down for these classes either, so I took him to things that suited him better. Nor did I take him to restaurants as I knew he would struggle to stay still for that long. It just wasn't his thing! He is now a dream at school. So don't stress. And please don't put ridiculous 'naughty' labels on a toddler who is being perfectly normal by being physically active. BTW the data on how much physically weaker children are nowadays than a generation ago are shocking - poorer core strength, co-ordination, balance. So please encourage rather than suppress and negatively label his active nature..

A lot of what you're talking about is just age and stage.

I wouldn't expect to be able to take a 2 yo out for a meal. My DC at 4yo could not be taken into most museums and galleries, as would have got excited, wanted to run around and touch things so have to be removed = no point or enjoyment for me.

A very years later and we can do all those things, though with suitably child-length, short and sweet, museum and gallery visits.

At school and with other people, behaviour is generally excellent - which is definitely partly a personality thing.

I understand your point OP, and to PPs, there’s really no good reason to call anyone’s child a “bit of a pain” All children are different and mature at completely different rates, some completely ignore discipline too. I completely understand what you mean about the strict upbringing affecting your happiness and confidence growing up. But don’t worry and please don’t fear that some discipline will do that to him, because as long as it’s not the shouty angry kind of discipline and it’s balanced with a lot of love and affection, he won’t grow up wondering where his happy childhood went! Definitely calmly stop him when he is not listening/running around etc. With my own son who was also “a spirited toddler” it was about reminding him every single time we went out of the boundaries and what the consequences would be for not behaving, so for example if he was about to bite or hit or run riot (I know biting and hitting aren’t an issue in your case but are very common for toddlers) we would have to leave places early, perhaps not to return or perhaps only to return after another pep talk. Sometimes it got to the point of removing a favourite toy for a week for particularly bad behaviour, and there were times I felt utterly embarrassed to take him anywhere. Now he is 7 and an absolute delight everywhere we go (I actually love taking him to restaurants etc) so he definitely had a lot of maturing to do. I know that will seem a long way off but I think he started growing out of the unbearable behaviour around age 3-4 and it just got better from there. My advice would be to always be firm and consistent with your boundaries (that doesn’t mean zapping every bit of fun he’s having!) but it means picking your battles, what are your top 2, or 3 rules? Remind him of them often. Get him to repeat them back to you often. Even while out; keep reminding him. Show immediate consequences for naughty behaviour, such as removing him from the room for a time out and another chat about it etc, he will slowly learn how to behave - with some children it of course takes longer than with others but he will get there. He’s only a toddler! Good luck.

I’ve had three and all three had tantrums. Not wanting to get back in the trolly or car seat and the kid does the banana back. Hideous.

Dd2 had the worst tantrum on a plane at two years old. It lasted ages. DH and I were red faced, mortified , embarrassed, angry, pissed off.

Shit happens

My eldest was a restless baby and toddler - she hated sitting still, she would absolutely be one of the kids who ran around the room in music sessions. We did take her to restaurants but it wasn't ever an enjoyable experience - so it was all about trying to keep her entertained for the whole meal. My second child was completely different in that respect - she would happily sit with me wherever we went, content just to watch the world go by or just talk nonsense with me if there was nothing to do. I could take her anywhere with no problems at all.

People who have naturally more placid children often congratulate themselves on their parenting but I believe they take too much credit. I consistently reinforced boundaries with my eldest but to pretty much no avail: it just meant it felt like I was fighting with her all the time. Now she's a young teenager and that feels like a long time ago but man, it was an exhausting few years.

Beware of parenting advice from people who think that their toddlers lack of tantrums is somehow down to their parenting

This!

It really doesn't do much for happiness and confidence when you're being left out from things and constantly having to be disciplined. 'That kid' is a total pita at school. However if he's behaving well at nursery it suggests very much that he can and maybe you need to revise your boundaries at home. One of my neighbours children was like this as a toddler, now I go inside when we i see her coming as she's so rude with her smart arse comments and cheek. She has parents who are super proud of her character too. She's certainly not popular amount the other kids either.

@albatrossdreams Perfectly said!

I'm a total believer that children need boundaries to feel secure and loved, reduce anxiety and improve behaviour.

But also that behaviour is communication.

It does make things complex. I often joke that parenting is basically one big guilt trip!

But the kindest thing we can do for our children is create secure boundaries for them and apply consequences when they break them.

And I dont necessarily mean punishments. Natural consequences are best IMO.
So can't behave in a situation talk to child about not being ready yet and having to stop attending activity. They often then behave to prove you wrong talk to children about why they thought doing the opposite of what asked is/was ok and what they suggest to solve the issue.

My DS never had a tantrum as a small child. He did however (and still does) bottle up his emotions and become angry and withdrawn when it got too much - he just wouldn't speak. Not due to parenting, just his personality. We probably spoiled him quite a bit because i couldn't have more children and he was DH's youngest (by 12 years), so from about the age of 6 he was the only child living at home after his brothers moved out.

He has always been kind, polite and generous, but that was more role modelling from his dad (and me) than us specifically teaching it to him. His tendency to depression is all his own though and could be part of what made him so biddable as a child - he couldn't be bothered rebelling.

Don't get me wrong, he's happy and has lots of friends, and has great leadership qualities - he describes himself as an extroverted introvert. But he went to the pub last night and at 11pm texted me asking if I could send him a whatsapp saying I needed him to come home because he was out too late and I was lonely at home. He's 20 and all his friends must think I am a right basket case, but he was bored and tired, and didn't want to upset them by saying he just wanted to go home!

Also being able to take your kids to nice restaurants is great (for them and for you!) Grass is always greener op and parents will always mess up in some way.

Two if my four DC went through the feral phase at some point between age 2yo and 3yo where it felt like they were constantly testing the rules, purposely doing the opposite of what I wanted them to do, and taking every opportunity to do what they shouldn't be doing. Developmentally, its normal and lots of children go through that stage but at the time it was exhausting and we left many a playgroup or playground with a small child under my arm, surfboard style. The main thing that got us through it was staying firm about boundaries, being consistent and appropriate with consequences of bad behaviour (e.g., toy thrown at the TV means that specific toy is taken away or refusal to walk means one chance to get up off the ground or into the pushchair you go), and trying to pre-empt other negative behaviours (e.g., DS2 would get bitey when annoyed so I would watch for the signs of this and remove him before he started biting).

There's a balance though surely? My 5 year old is a boisterous, lively little boy with no fear but he's polite, listens to adults and does as he's told.
Well behaved doesn't mean boring.

I think you can be both a well behaved child and not a kid who is scared of their parents.

I could sit through three hours of Latin mass in silence from about the age of four, I could go to uni with my mum & colour in at the back of the lecture theatre & I could sit through supper at a fancy restaurant.
I was polite and well mannered but I also thought for myself. Headed up a protest round my catholic primary school to allow girls to wear trousers. Was fierce in standing up to bullies & spoke in the lords and at the European Parliament when I was in my teens

There’s a massive difference between being a kid who wouldn’t say boo to a goose, and being a poorly behaved child. I want my kids to fit in that gap.

When mine were that age I avoided the sort of toddler groups that expected them to sit still and join in with the singing, as they wouldn't have joined in. I also wouldn't have taken them to classy restaurants, and if I did need them to sit still I took paper, crayons etc.They were both fairly well behaved, but toddlers are not very good at sitting still. I did try and make sure they knew how to share and to say please and thank you.

I've looked after many toddlers over the years as a nanny, from different families with different parenting styles, and I would say that a little bit of it is down to personality but it's mainly down to the boundaries and expectations of the parents and caregivers.
There are some situations where I would expect a toddler to sit quietly (watching a siblings assembly, going to a cafe for example), you explain this beforehand and you chat to them quietly and keep them engaged with what's going on, right from them learning to walk you gently teach them that there are some situation where they can run around freely and some situations where they are expected to be quiet.

I've been in toddler music classes where the majority of the children are joining in appropriately (as in sitting, listening, dancing, playing instruments) and one or two are running riot whilst their parents look on smiling, without making much effort to encourage them to sit still and engage with the class. It's really distracting for the kids who are joining in and a bit rude towards the teacher.

Our DS has a cousin who is really compliant and placid and I do sometimes think it would be a lot easier to 'train' your child to be quiet and 'seen and not heard' but that's not the way we want to do it.