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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think erasing monuments and blackface doesn't help solve the race issue at all?

254 replies

GinDaddyRedux · 11/06/2020 05:42

I will try and keep this brief but I am getting increasingly furious (not overstatement) at the typical kneejerk, self-serving, virtue signalling nonsense I am seeing around race in the UK, in response to the protests following the death of George Floyd in the United States.

For context, I am a mixed race (black Afro-Caribbean/white) male who grew up in London around great people, knowing and looking up to a lot of the chaps whose fathers came off the Windrush or came in the 60s and 70s to work in London on transport etc. I feel a real connection to the islands as a heritage, but have always been fervently British as it's the only home I've known since birth.

Here's the thing that I find ridiculous. Why, just why are we now spending so much time and effort going through every public monument and reference to colonialism or slavery, and every instance of blackface or other comedy on TV, and erasing them from view as some sort of panacea that will solve the race issue? When there are vital social issues that need addressing that will help black people far quicker and more fundamentally then dealing with blackface?!

I thought Little Britain was hilarious. I think every character was a fantastic send-up of modern British sterotypes. And for modern British stereotypes to actually work, you need black people funnily enough. So I have no problems with the premise. Going further - to indicate a black person on screen, there's only a few ways to go about it, and considering how Lucas and Walliams are the authors of all their characters, it was going to be necessary for them to do something.

Who on earth then considers it helpful to the race relations debate in this country, to remove something from public viewing, that is perfectly within the licence of art and comedy, and which I doubt has been named in the list of influential factors around race that lead to black men's deaths in police custody?

Similarly, we seem to now be forensically combing our civic institutions, universities, libraries, consecrated places, and checking whether any of the statues, bequests, named buildings are connected to slavery.

It's the sort of handwringing, worthy effort that I expected, because it makes people feel they are doing something. It makes for nice headlines and distracts from the real issues that actually need addressing.

Namely, if governments want to help black people, start with the environment some of us (not all!) grow up in. Look at the structural things in terms of poverty, lack of access to resources, deprived areas, parental structures, health services, and see where this tends to lead to.

Then look at the number of convictions for police who have been brought to trial for the wrongful death of a black person in custody. You'll be looking for a long time.

The reactions to the protests are typical of British leaders who look for low-hanging fruit and public headlines over anything more fundamental. We are a more inclusive country than we are given credit; when writing this I was reminded of how South Asian friends of mine were laughing at the character of Taaj from "Come Fly With Me", stating Lucas' accent and slang was eerily spot on for a Midlands Asian chap. There's a great British tradition that if folk are openly and happily taking the piss out of you, it means you're a mate. That sketch was definitely in that spirit.

I just feel that yes, little things and perceptions around race matter. But to cleanse our streets of statues won't change the fundamental destinations and outcomes for black men and women in the UK. It will just make (largely white) councillors, politicians and leaders feel better. And that's what this is always about in the end.

OP posts:
hamstersarse · 11/06/2020 06:10

I worry that the BLM movement won’t help race relations and even may make it worse.

The slavery issue for example is something that every continent including Africa, has been involved in at some point in history. It still is an issue in some parts of the world. Obviously, it’s a horrendous reflection on human tribalist nature but what we did here In the West was progress with enlightened attitudes, with a desire to be fair and put it into our foundational human rights laws. You would be hard pushed to find a single person in the UK who would support slavery now. Pulling down the statues I understand at one level, but if you have even basic knowledge of psychology, one of the things that makes you a whole person is the recognition of your dark side.

Slavery was our dark side, a demonstration of how evil we can be. It’s really important to remember how bad we can be. So we don’t let it happen again. Every human has it in them, and people who don’t know this about themselves, really doesn’t understand human nature or themselves. So it’s difficult, tearing down the statues makes sense at one level, but denying how bad humans can be sets a really dangerous precedent.

Equally with policing, and it’s hard not to blur the UK with the USA, but if we accept that black people tend to have lower socioeconomic status, they are the exact communities who need good policing. The Ferguson effect in the US is an example of this...after the Ferguson shooting, the police stopped ‘policing’ black communities as much because of fear of being accused of racism, and the murder rate increased massively (most homicides are black people on black people in these communities, not some racist cop). They need the good policing and if we have police afraid to police for fear of being accused of racism, then the system breaks down further.

I support creating a society where race isn’t even a discussion point, yet I fear BLM creates more division and a victim mentality that doesn’t support progress in the long run.

Meredithgrey1 · 11/06/2020 06:55

So, is your worry that by doing this, universities, councils, politicians etc can say "look, we listened! We took down the statues, yay for us" and then not actually do anything else that might actually help with inequality?
If so, then yes I understand your concern, it's headline grabbing and may take away from other issues. But at the same time, this isn't something that politicians have come up with themselves as a way of looking like they support the movement without actually having to put any effort into looking more deeply at the issues. People are asking for the statues to be removed, so now it's also headline grabbing if statues aren't removed (partly because the statue might then be vandalised or removed by protesters). Obviously more needs to be done, but they need to be made to do that by continued pressure. I don't think the statue removal prevents that from happening, as long as people aren't allowed to get away with using it as a defence against further criticism (ie if a politician is challenged that they didn't listen to BLM, it's not good enough for them to say "yes I did, I took down a statue, what more do you want?")

rosie1959 · 11/06/2020 07:04

@hamstersarse

I worry that the BLM movement won’t help race relations and even may make it worse.

The slavery issue for example is something that every continent including Africa, has been involved in at some point in history. It still is an issue in some parts of the world. Obviously, it’s a horrendous reflection on human tribalist nature but what we did here In the West was progress with enlightened attitudes, with a desire to be fair and put it into our foundational human rights laws. You would be hard pushed to find a single person in the UK who would support slavery now. Pulling down the statues I understand at one level, but if you have even basic knowledge of psychology, one of the things that makes you a whole person is the recognition of your dark side.

Slavery was our dark side, a demonstration of how evil we can be. It’s really important to remember how bad we can be. So we don’t let it happen again. Every human has it in them, and people who don’t know this about themselves, really doesn’t understand human nature or themselves. So it’s difficult, tearing down the statues makes sense at one level, but denying how bad humans can be sets a really dangerous precedent.

Equally with policing, and it’s hard not to blur the UK with the USA, but if we accept that black people tend to have lower socioeconomic status, they are the exact communities who need good policing. The Ferguson effect in the US is an example of this...after the Ferguson shooting, the police stopped ‘policing’ black communities as much because of fear of being accused of racism, and the murder rate increased massively (most homicides are black people on black people in these communities, not some racist cop). They need the good policing and if we have police afraid to police for fear of being accused of racism, then the system breaks down further.

I support creating a society where race isn’t even a discussion point, yet I fear BLM creates more division and a victim mentality that doesn’t support progress in the long run.

I agree with everything you have posted I too wonder if all the protests may cause more divisions
KeepWashingThoseHands · 11/06/2020 07:05

I agree with your post OP.

Think the statues should have been removed a long time ago and that is indicative of the problem - that no one thought to and actioned this before.

QueenofmyPrinces · 11/06/2020 07:10

I worry that the BLM movement won’t help race relations and even may make it worse.

Me too.

I said this as soon as I saw the footage of the London protest and I fear it even more now that England is being forced to eradicate its history. I can’t see how this is going to improve anything.

makingmammaries · 11/06/2020 07:14

Why do I think the Kremlin is stirring this sudden movement of coordinated rioting over many different countries during a pandemic?

BagpussAteMyHomework · 11/06/2020 07:26

I think of it as ‘history in the making’ not erasing history. Things move on.

Lots of people have learned a lot of history in the last few days that they could have learned at school or from a book or from visiting a museum but they didn’t learn it there, perhaps because it seemed boring or irrelevant to their lives today. I’ve certainly learned stuff, like the sheer scale of the compensation paid to slave owners.

Tinkerbell456 · 11/06/2020 07:28

It just occurs to me that we can’t learn from history if we erase it. Slavery is a fact of history, and not just slavery of black people either. For a start, British people in ancient times were enslaved by Romans, Vikings and even occasionally the Irish. The idea of one human actually owning another is so bizarre to me, but standard stuff in ancient times. I will qualify this by saying slavery has disproportionately affected black people.

YeahWhatevver · 11/06/2020 07:29

I worry that the hand wringing, pious, "offended on behalf of others" brigade are marching us towards some sort of Puritan fix, where on the surface it's all been rectified but nothing fundamental has changed.

A fix where a lot* of our culture/history/heritage has been erased to the detriment of us all.

*I do think some of it has no place in 21st century society but censoring stuff like Little Britain basically on the grounds of bad taste is dangerous ground.

SnuggyBuggy · 11/06/2020 07:29

The expression you have to learn history to learn from history seems relevant. Pretending something never happened doesn't make the thing go away.

Livelovebehappy · 11/06/2020 07:33

OP, absolutely spot on!

leckford · 11/06/2020 07:35

If the police don’t get their act together and control the anarchist rioting there is going to be a massive fight in London. The football supporters are going to protect the monuments and why not, that is their point of view.

It is laughable to see all the violent white people supporting this movement which has little support amongst ordinary people out the London bubble.

Has anyone thought this has been manipulated the naive by China/Russian bot farms to destabilise the U.K., US and Europe?

Pelleas · 11/06/2020 07:40

Think the statues should have been removed a long time ago and that is indicative of the problem - that no one thought to and actioned this before.

I agree with this. I understand that now, the Bristol statue is to be placed in a museum alongside material from the BLM movement and exhibits relating to the slave trade. I think that is a good approach - acknowledging that, in times past, we celebrated Edward Colton rather than trying to pretend it didn't happen, but showing exactly why he is no longer considered a part of history to be proud of. If this had been done without the statue having to be torn down in a protest it would have shown proactive rather than reactive awareness of BLM.

dottiedodah · 11/06/2020 07:40

I think that the sooner the better for these statues to be removed TBH! Many of us (well me anyway ) would walk by these and not really take any notice of who they are .However by leaving them there ,we are publicly declaring them "Great Men" when they are quite clearly anything but! Do we want to be defined by a white colonial past(I am white BTW!) or a fairer society .It doesnt solve the problem of inequality but at least is a start in the right direction!

Pelleas · 11/06/2020 07:41

^Edward Colston that should say.

BurntOut1 · 11/06/2020 07:42

I totally agree with everyone saying it is very dangerous to erase history and history must be learned from.

BUT, surely a statue is more of a celebration of that person rather than an educational device? I can’t imagine that the plaque on the statue referenced the slave trade?

So in that case shouldn’t we be teaching about the whole story rather than putting these figures in a purely celebratory light?

I may be completely wrong - off to research some more but interested in what people think? I just can’t imagine that a significant amount of history learning is done through statues? But it may be just me!

OrangeCinnamon · 11/06/2020 07:42

I admit to starting to worry about this too. I'm not actually furious as you are though. My view is that there has been so much inaction for so long, so much apathy and lack of engagement in political matters that something is better than nothing atm.

On the otherhand what is starting to worry me is the overwhelming perception that it is the trouble making BAME ...lots of people conveniently ignoring the fact young white people just as much involved. You read people saying stuff on facebook like 'blacks should go.home if they don't like our statues'.

Things that people say are.being twisted and lots of faux outrage especially when it is dared to be said by a BAME person.

I don't think it is wrong to remove a statue idolising a slave trader..But so many people comment for and against such things without taking into account the nuances of history - a very broad brush approach. That real lack of engagement with issues past and present is worrying. The opinion that we need to put the past behind us and move to the future is very dangerous.

My perception of Little Britain is that it was just two posh guys taking the piss out.of anything they can find . A bit shit really , they made millions out of it, definitely would not have been on tv if they were working class or BAME.

I agree there needs to be more consideration of societal structures and their effect. What gets me is that there is a chance to use the BLM movement here in the UK for the good of all society but people cant see it and I dont trust or expect this goverment to do anything more than comment and make a few token gestures.

OrangeCinnamon · 11/06/2020 07:48

@leckford there are millions of football supporters in the UK i'm not sure they all take such a stance. Violence i've seen directed at police when I go to football matches suggests to me that some might even like to indulge in anarchy too !

BurntOut1 · 11/06/2020 07:51

In reference to my earlier comment - the Edward Colston statue did reference his links to slave trade, but only after a battle in 2018. Really in depth article on it here if anyone is interested:

www.brh.org.uk/site/articles/the-edward-colston-corrective-plaque/

OrangeCinnamon · 11/06/2020 07:56

...and actually one of the most betraying things over the past few years is the lack of solidarity amongst the working class.

HotPenguin · 11/06/2020 08:01

I don't agree OP I think it's wrong to revere these people who profited from the slave trade but made philanthropic donations, it's like saying that all the suffering of the slave trade doesn't matter and Coulston was a a great bloke actually because he set up a school.

I agree that history shouldn't be erased but I agree with what is now proposed for the Coulston statue, that it will sit in a museum where it can be explained in context, I e. Some of the things he did really helped people in Bristol but the impact of his company in Africa was terrible.

I don't think the argument that slavery also took place within Africa excuses what British slave traders did at all.

The Little Britain example I think is more difficult and I partly agree with you, but I can also see why Walliams and Lucas want to distance themselves from it and recognise that many people find black face offensive.

BovaryX · 11/06/2020 08:07

People are asking for the statues to be removed, so now it's also headline grabbing

Many of the people demanding Rhodes is removed are some of the whitest, most privileged 0.00001 percent on the planet. Nelson Mandela praised Rhodes for his scholarships which fund international students to attend Oxford. Google Rhodes scholarships. Removing statues because they are targeted by vandalism? Abraham Lincoln's statue was sprayed with graffiti. Should that be pulled down too? There are no significant historical figures that will pas the judgement of the 21st century. Should all significant statues go? I wonder about the motivation of something guaranteed to cause division.

hamstersarse · 11/06/2020 08:09

Lots of people have learned a lot of history in the last few days that they could have learned at school or from a book or from visiting a museum but they didn’t learn it there, perhaps because it seemed boring or irrelevant to their lives today. I’ve certainly learned stuff, like the sheer scale of the compensation paid to slave owners.

Liverpool has a museum dedicated to the history of the slave trade. Everything is in there, full effort not to hide from its slave trade history. It’s really very shocking and does not attempt to hide its history in any way. It presents the awful facts.

I think that should be recognised when people are demanding street names be changed. Liverpool makes no secret of its past...the street names dont make people alive today racist. It’s an unfortunate truth about our past that we should recognise and most / the majority of people never want to repeat anything like that and there is an argument that it helps keep it in our mind.

I suspect if you did erase it, people would complain about that too at a later date, claiming we aren’t taking responsibility for our past etc.

MsJuniper · 11/06/2020 08:15

People had been trying to get the statue in Bristol removed for decades by the "proper" means and nothing had happened apart from a mealy-mouthed plaque whose wording was still being argued over.

Sometimes direct action is needed. It isn't erasing history, it's ceasing to celebrate some aspects of it. Many people learnt more about Colston and slavery in the last week than they'd have learnt at school. He's been dredged up now and will go in a museum which is more appropriate.

WRT Little Britain, many people found that grotesque and unacceptable at the time too. Not all shows need to be available to everyone at all times so it is no huge loss if they are shelved. No-one is deleting the master copies afaik.

Pixxie7 · 11/06/2020 08:18

Totally agree with you. But I think the government is using the BLM movement to distract from the Covid pandemic.