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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think erasing monuments and blackface doesn't help solve the race issue at all?

254 replies

GinDaddyRedux · 11/06/2020 05:42

I will try and keep this brief but I am getting increasingly furious (not overstatement) at the typical kneejerk, self-serving, virtue signalling nonsense I am seeing around race in the UK, in response to the protests following the death of George Floyd in the United States.

For context, I am a mixed race (black Afro-Caribbean/white) male who grew up in London around great people, knowing and looking up to a lot of the chaps whose fathers came off the Windrush or came in the 60s and 70s to work in London on transport etc. I feel a real connection to the islands as a heritage, but have always been fervently British as it's the only home I've known since birth.

Here's the thing that I find ridiculous. Why, just why are we now spending so much time and effort going through every public monument and reference to colonialism or slavery, and every instance of blackface or other comedy on TV, and erasing them from view as some sort of panacea that will solve the race issue? When there are vital social issues that need addressing that will help black people far quicker and more fundamentally then dealing with blackface?!

I thought Little Britain was hilarious. I think every character was a fantastic send-up of modern British sterotypes. And for modern British stereotypes to actually work, you need black people funnily enough. So I have no problems with the premise. Going further - to indicate a black person on screen, there's only a few ways to go about it, and considering how Lucas and Walliams are the authors of all their characters, it was going to be necessary for them to do something.

Who on earth then considers it helpful to the race relations debate in this country, to remove something from public viewing, that is perfectly within the licence of art and comedy, and which I doubt has been named in the list of influential factors around race that lead to black men's deaths in police custody?

Similarly, we seem to now be forensically combing our civic institutions, universities, libraries, consecrated places, and checking whether any of the statues, bequests, named buildings are connected to slavery.

It's the sort of handwringing, worthy effort that I expected, because it makes people feel they are doing something. It makes for nice headlines and distracts from the real issues that actually need addressing.

Namely, if governments want to help black people, start with the environment some of us (not all!) grow up in. Look at the structural things in terms of poverty, lack of access to resources, deprived areas, parental structures, health services, and see where this tends to lead to.

Then look at the number of convictions for police who have been brought to trial for the wrongful death of a black person in custody. You'll be looking for a long time.

The reactions to the protests are typical of British leaders who look for low-hanging fruit and public headlines over anything more fundamental. We are a more inclusive country than we are given credit; when writing this I was reminded of how South Asian friends of mine were laughing at the character of Taaj from "Come Fly With Me", stating Lucas' accent and slang was eerily spot on for a Midlands Asian chap. There's a great British tradition that if folk are openly and happily taking the piss out of you, it means you're a mate. That sketch was definitely in that spirit.

I just feel that yes, little things and perceptions around race matter. But to cleanse our streets of statues won't change the fundamental destinations and outcomes for black men and women in the UK. It will just make (largely white) councillors, politicians and leaders feel better. And that's what this is always about in the end.

OP posts:
hamstersarse · 11/06/2020 09:30

I don't have a problem with statues getting moved to museums but agree that it's unlike there are significant historical figures that will pas the judgement of the 21st century. Do we just pull them all down?

This is the fundamental problem. Whether we like it or not, our history of colonialism and slavery has made this country rich and prosperous, and this prosperity has allowed us evolve and develop our civil rights and human rights - it is only in rich countries where you see such freedoms and opportunities. Hence why people will put themselves in a dinghy on the English Channel and try and land up here.

Our history is checkered, yet it ultimately is delivering a functional and safe society now and although against today's standards we would not accept how we did it, what can we do about it?

endofthelinefinally · 11/06/2020 09:31

One thing we can all do would be to sign the petition on the pregnancy board about improving care and outcomes for black women. Something really important that is not getting enough attention.

jobhunter7 · 11/06/2020 09:32

Couldn't the people of for example Bristol vote on whether they wanted the statue of Colston put back where it was?

Give people a few months to think about it and different people time to express their views...

If they do, that's okay. The council do that. If they don't job is done, it goes in a nearby museum.

And ditto other statues.

Melia100 · 11/06/2020 09:33

One thing we can all do would be to sign the petition on the pregnancy board about improving care and outcomes for black women. Something really important that is not getting enough attention

Thanks for the heads up.

Thinkingg · 11/06/2020 09:37

The Colston statue was a "current day problem" for my cousins growing up in Bristol and walking past it daily. As kids growing up in a particularly racist decade it was used by some of their peers to taunt them. "He knew what to do with you lot" was the mildest of the comments. Oh that's shit @C8H10N4O2 I'm sorry Sad. I guess removing it at least shows those racist kids that society doesn't support them?

dooble · 11/06/2020 09:37

Whether we like it or not, our history of colonialism and slavery has made this country rich and prosperous, and this prosperity has allowed us evolve and develop our civil rights and human rights - it is only in rich countries where you see such freedoms and opportunities.

Yes this is the uncomfortable truth which is still correct today.

My privilege & choices affect others in other parts of the world.

leckford · 11/06/2020 09:37

There is little sympathy outside of London for theses violent rioting anarchists. The police are regarded as gutless in their lack of action against them.

Destroying our history by a minority group does not sit well with most people.

dooble · 11/06/2020 09:38

@endoftheline I will sign

MaMaLa321 · 11/06/2020 09:38

about Colston. The years of dithering were because many people in Bristol wanted it to stay up. But they don't count.

MockersGuidedByTheScience · 11/06/2020 09:38

I'm just waiting for them to ban Bing.

He's dreaming of a White Chritsmas, just like the ones he used to know, the racist bastard.

Meruem · 11/06/2020 09:41

I agree with you OP and had this exact discussion with my DS last night. A few token gestures is not real and lasting change. I don’t know what the answer is, I wish I did. But I don’t think it’s helping getting all caught up on statues and tv shows.

MaMaLa321 · 11/06/2020 09:41

The local MP, the mayor, and the bishop have all supported the statue being taken down by a mob. If it was re-instated (unlikely) the mob would take it down again. And, in the meantime, the mayor has pledged to spend money on a commission to investigate Bristol's history.
The same mayor who says there isn't enough money to run public libraries.

C8H10N4O2 · 11/06/2020 09:45

I guess removing it at least shows those racist kids that society doesn't support them?

They are happy to see it gone, there has been an upsurge in racism in recent years.

For years there was been growing support for removing the statue or at least modifying the wording on the plaque to reflect reality rather than the lies. Even tweaking the wording saying what a great and good chap he was has been blocked by a minority.

The likes of Colston were not great and good. They belong in museums in a context. Others like Gladstone have a more complicated story and for those I'd look at them case by case.

The idea that removing the glorification of human misery is 'destroying' history is risible. Their very prescence is a historic lie.

MyDogPatch · 11/06/2020 09:46

Woke Mayor of London Sadiq Khan keeps bringing up the case for a Slavery Museum in London. But if you visit the Museum of London Docklands it lays very bare the role slavery had in London's and Britain's rise to a superpower.

www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/mapping-londons-legacy-slavery-docklands

I am actually grateful to the people of Bristol who pulled down Edward Colston's statue because living on the other side of the country, I'd never heard of him before. So I looked him up, read archived news from Bristol, and educated myself. By pulling down that statue, I've learned something, which is positive, isn't it?

Streamingbannersofdawn · 11/06/2020 09:47

Thanks OP. You have articulated why I have felt uneasy about some of the protests and actions like the fury around the Colston statue.

Its the low hanging fruit you mentioned. Getting caught up in details whilst missing the root of the problem entirely.

I actually believe the Colston statue should be taken down and I'm amazed it has stayed there so long. I'm worried though that we will think that's enough and move on.

Tanith · 11/06/2020 09:47

One thing we can all do would be to sign the petition on the pregnancy board about improving care and outcomes for black women. Something really important that is not getting enough attention.

This is the petition endofthelinefinally mentioned:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/301079

dontlikebeards · 11/06/2020 09:51

Thank you OP the best bit of common sense I have seen throughout this. Very perceptive and intelligent.

zoemum2006 · 11/06/2020 09:55

"virtue signalling nonsense"????

Really? You sound like an alt-right troll.

I couldn't get past the opening of your post.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 11/06/2020 09:56

GinDaddyRedux

I have thought exactly what you've written in your op.

I'm also very uncomfortable that, in many cases, it seems to be white people driving this. I really don't think this is something that white people should be "doing to" black people, we should be affecting change "with" black people.

I've raised the issues of poverty, education, crime and fear of crime on other threads and been shouted down and told that it's white privilege because we should be discussing racism not societal issues.

This country needs to change. We need to eradicate poverty and re distribute wealth and opportunity. Racism has absolutely no place in a modern society - none - but an absence of racism isn't enough if you live in poverty with no prospect of a job is it?

MaMaLa321 · 11/06/2020 09:58

Here in Bristol we're going to get a slavery museum (of course) when, just across the harbour, The M Shed has a whole floor dedicated to it.

SistemaAddict · 11/06/2020 09:59

Excellent post OP.

If we start taking down statues then will this lead to dismantling buildings that were built with the profits from the slave trade? I'm just starting to look at how the slave trade benefited Britain. I'm not sure what we'd have left if we started taking everything down. It's got me thinking about companies that are still around today that were born of the slave trade. Sugar cane imports perhaps? I'll need to look at that though, it's just a thought at the moment.

The poster who mentioned our reliance on and desire for cheap imported products made an excellent point.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 11/06/2020 10:01

then show Gandhi visiting the Lancashire cotton mills,

Gandhi held very racist views though didn't he?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 11/06/2020 10:02

There is little sympathy outside of London for theses violent rioting anarchists. The police are regarded as gutless in their lack of action against them.

Obviously you support the other 99% of peaceful protests am I right? Or are you trying to conflate the rioters and protesters? If that is your intention then you disgust me

Melia100 · 11/06/2020 10:03

The same mayor who says there isn't enough money to run public libraries

If that's true, that's very short sighted of him or her.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 11/06/2020 10:04

The poster who mentioned our reliance on and desire for cheap imported products made an excellent point.

It's also been mentioned on another thread how many of the BLM protesters were wearing clothing made by basically modern day slaves.