Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think erasing monuments and blackface doesn't help solve the race issue at all?

254 replies

GinDaddyRedux · 11/06/2020 05:42

I will try and keep this brief but I am getting increasingly furious (not overstatement) at the typical kneejerk, self-serving, virtue signalling nonsense I am seeing around race in the UK, in response to the protests following the death of George Floyd in the United States.

For context, I am a mixed race (black Afro-Caribbean/white) male who grew up in London around great people, knowing and looking up to a lot of the chaps whose fathers came off the Windrush or came in the 60s and 70s to work in London on transport etc. I feel a real connection to the islands as a heritage, but have always been fervently British as it's the only home I've known since birth.

Here's the thing that I find ridiculous. Why, just why are we now spending so much time and effort going through every public monument and reference to colonialism or slavery, and every instance of blackface or other comedy on TV, and erasing them from view as some sort of panacea that will solve the race issue? When there are vital social issues that need addressing that will help black people far quicker and more fundamentally then dealing with blackface?!

I thought Little Britain was hilarious. I think every character was a fantastic send-up of modern British sterotypes. And for modern British stereotypes to actually work, you need black people funnily enough. So I have no problems with the premise. Going further - to indicate a black person on screen, there's only a few ways to go about it, and considering how Lucas and Walliams are the authors of all their characters, it was going to be necessary for them to do something.

Who on earth then considers it helpful to the race relations debate in this country, to remove something from public viewing, that is perfectly within the licence of art and comedy, and which I doubt has been named in the list of influential factors around race that lead to black men's deaths in police custody?

Similarly, we seem to now be forensically combing our civic institutions, universities, libraries, consecrated places, and checking whether any of the statues, bequests, named buildings are connected to slavery.

It's the sort of handwringing, worthy effort that I expected, because it makes people feel they are doing something. It makes for nice headlines and distracts from the real issues that actually need addressing.

Namely, if governments want to help black people, start with the environment some of us (not all!) grow up in. Look at the structural things in terms of poverty, lack of access to resources, deprived areas, parental structures, health services, and see where this tends to lead to.

Then look at the number of convictions for police who have been brought to trial for the wrongful death of a black person in custody. You'll be looking for a long time.

The reactions to the protests are typical of British leaders who look for low-hanging fruit and public headlines over anything more fundamental. We are a more inclusive country than we are given credit; when writing this I was reminded of how South Asian friends of mine were laughing at the character of Taaj from "Come Fly With Me", stating Lucas' accent and slang was eerily spot on for a Midlands Asian chap. There's a great British tradition that if folk are openly and happily taking the piss out of you, it means you're a mate. That sketch was definitely in that spirit.

I just feel that yes, little things and perceptions around race matter. But to cleanse our streets of statues won't change the fundamental destinations and outcomes for black men and women in the UK. It will just make (largely white) councillors, politicians and leaders feel better. And that's what this is always about in the end.

OP posts:
MockersGuidedByTheScience · 11/06/2020 08:19

Cromwell hacked down a load of statues. He wasn't erasing history. He was doing history.

Good point made on TV this morning, showing a KS3 History of Britain in the 20th century textbook without so much as a single black or brown face in it. (Although the stern of the Empire Windrush did put in an appearance.)

Who should be in that book? I'd start with Walter Tull, then show Gandhi visiting the Lancashire cotton mills, those guys in their porkpie hats in the 50s, Basil D'Oliveira, NHS Nurses, Jimi Hendrix in Carnaby St cavalry twirl, the good people of Brixton taking issue with Her Majesty's Plod, Johnson Buharry VC.

There. It's not difficult.

BagpussAteMyHomework · 11/06/2020 08:20

hamstersarse I’ve been to that museum. It’s fantastic.

hula008 · 11/06/2020 08:22

hamstersarse So we don’t let it happen again

There are more slaves in the world today than there ever have been at any one time. So I'm not sure the statues are having the intended effect..

RuffleCrow · 11/06/2020 08:22

yanbu, it's just a sticking plaster on a broken limb. It does fuck all to address the underlying causes of inequality and racism. It's the establishment going "look over there!" while they continue to count the millions Great, Great Uncle Tristan left them from the slave trade.

Sandybval · 11/06/2020 08:23

The government are quite happy though, all of this talk of statues etc is meaning that people are distracted enough that they don't actually have to do anything. The police also need to keep control, the divide from all of this is going to be deeper than ever before unless it's steered in some sort of direction. America seems to be making changes. Not enough, and long long overdue, but aside from BJ saying it doesn't exist in this country, what has the government actually addressed?

Wecandothis99 · 11/06/2020 08:25

This is a really good post.

I too am mixed race and this whole movement sits uneasy with me. So much shouting etc aimlessly!

Thinkingg · 11/06/2020 08:28

I agree with you that if it becomes all about statues rather than addressing deaths in custody and bias in education etc, it's an easy diversion and missed opportunity to actually improve lives. I wouldn't say you can't do both, though, so I'm hoping that symbolic actions and meaningful change can occur together.

I'm not yelling for statues to come down, but on the other hand I read about the history of some of the disputed figures and was shocked, so I won't be going out to bat for them either. I've written to my MP about the covid race enquiry and police bias.

C8H10N4O2 · 11/06/2020 08:34

History isn't erased by moving a statue. The presence of that statue in many cases perpetuates a historic lie.

Colston and his merchant ilk were not great and good men as they are described on their statues and monuments. They were mass murderers who accumulated wealth by human miserry. They subsequenetly bought and paid for social capital by spending some of that money on highly visible public works. Rather like wealthy people buy honours these days - splashing cash on some charity works.

Even the slightest modification to Colston's flowery plaque was blocked for years by a minority on the council.

Those men should not be held up as examples and great men (and they are all men). I would have moved Colston to a museum in context talking about slavery. Bristol used to have a Commonwealth museum covering slavery, Liverpool also has this type of museum. That is the way to cover this period of history, not aggradising monuments to mass murderers.

MadameBee · 11/06/2020 08:36

Germany did it and they seem to be doing ok learning about their history.

Malbecblooms · 11/06/2020 08:40

I disagree with removing of statues anyway. Quite clearly it goes without saying that slavery and racism are abhorrent. However, these people lived in a different era.

In Victorian times it would have been shocking for a woman to wear trousers. Their was inequality and misogyny. It's no longer frowned upon to wear trousers.

Women couldn't vote - do we take down the statues of every man who tried to block the sufferage movement?

My grandparents were quite racist and used some most unfortunate terms. If they were alive today they would now be well over 100. They grew up in the white middle class countryside where they never met a black person until they were in adulthood. They were not bad people, they were of a different era.

My grandmother referred to children with disabilities with toe curlingly awful descriptions. She was also tolerant and loving and ahead of her time with understanding disability but she used the words and hadThe beliefs of someone born 100 years ago

My point is, historic figures can be racist and good people. They were a different era. They may have been enslavers and done some good in life to earn a statue.

Why not keep the statues as a reminder that people are not just good it evil? Why not keep them to remind us that it's great that we no longer lived like that and also keep them to remember the good parts of that person.

You can't erase history.

FTMF30 · 11/06/2020 08:42

By removing certain statues, there is a clear message that these people are no longer to be celebrated and admired. Does it eradicate racism? Of course not. But it's a very positive move.

There really is no use in saying "there's no point in doing this or that because it won't change anything". That attitude really will make sure nothing is changed.

hamstersarse · 11/06/2020 08:45

I’m not defending the statues in any way and agree they are an unhelpful diversion

I guess the point is...what these statues say about our culture today is being somehow twisted. Just because we have a statue of a slave trader in our cities that became wealthy by the slave trade doesn’t mean that the city’s residents support racism.

I never pay attention to any statues tbh but to me, the problem with the statue pulling is the extrapolation that they are there, ergo all white British people are racist.

C8H10N4O2 · 11/06/2020 08:46

Germany did it and they seem to be doing ok learning about their history

Yes exactly.

Statues are not history they are memorials to the wealthy and powerful. Wealth and power is not de facto as sign of "good'.

There are people whose story is more mixed (Gladstone would be one) but the merchant slavers were no more good than Zuckerberg is "good and great" for bunging free Facebook devices into local schools.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 11/06/2020 08:46

The mayoral candidate Shaun Bailey agrees with you. He explained his reasoning well on Twitter.

Malbecblooms · 11/06/2020 08:46

*there

And I also agree with moving to a museum if we can't keep them on a plinth.

It just shows a complete lack of education, rationality and impulse control to tear down and vandalise.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 11/06/2020 08:50

twitter.com/ShaunBaileyUK/status/1270802937648947200

Thinkingg · 11/06/2020 08:55

This thread is an ironic example of exactly what you're trying to say. Loads of us drawn into debating statues, no discussion of how to solve current day problems. How do we make sure the latter discussion happens?

dooble · 11/06/2020 08:56

I too wonder if all the protests may cause more divisions

Perhaps the gov wants in fighting as a convenient distraction.

I don't have a problem with statues getting moved to museums but agree that it's unlike there are significant historical figures that will pas the judgement of the 21st century. Do we just pull them all down?

I would like to see more action tackling the problems of today. How do we hold the police accountable?

I mentioned this on other threads but why don't we look at the mc casual drug use that is directly correlated to gangs & knife crime? What about the fact our desire for cheap products from China leads to child labour, low wages, lax health & safety? Our desire to fly, import etc which affects climate change which causes drought, lack of crops in poorer countries.

hamstersarse · 11/06/2020 08:56

WRT Little Britain, can you imagine if they had made that with NO racial diversity? That would have been worse and totally agree with OPs sentiments, that when you can take the piss out of people it means you are part of the gang.

And let’s face it, everyone could be offending by little Britain, there was no discrimination.

Young single mums, rich people, fat People, farmers, politicians, disabled people, gay people, welsh people - all were characterised and mocked

OrangeCinnamon · 11/06/2020 09:01

I cant get worked up.about the success of a comedy programme, it was shit then .

Pukkatea · 11/06/2020 09:07

I completely agree with removing the statues but I also agree that they are becoming a convenient low-hanging fruit to distract from the real issues. It's like when plastics became a concern so they grabbed headlines banning straws, which contribute virtually nothing to ocean plastic overall, and said look job done, no need for any difficult conversations about fossil fuels or regulations or the US. Now it's look - we took little britain off netflix, no need for any action to dismantle systemic racism and the structures that perpetuate it. They're hoping if enough headlines hit about statues then they will exhaust people's attention span on the topic and they get to control the conversation in the direction they want.

TheEmpressMatilda · 11/06/2020 09:12

So many “mixed race” MNers who find blackface hilarious...

endofthelinefinally · 11/06/2020 09:13

I think certain statues should be removed and placed in museums. A bit like the WW2 museum in Amsterdam.
I do worry about where the graffiti and destruction will end. Who will decide what is destroyed? Will portraits and paintings be sprayed/ torn down?
Should all the houses in Bristol that were built with money from the slave trade be demolished?
Where do we draw the line.
The current documentary series "A House Through Time" features exactly one such property.

C8H10N4O2 · 11/06/2020 09:18

Loads of us drawn into debating statues, no discussion of how to solve current day problems

The Colston statue was a "current day problem" for my cousins growing up in Bristol and walking past it daily. As kids growing up in a particularly racist decade it was used by some of their peers to taunt them. "He knew what to do with you lot" was the mildest of the comments. That statue didn't just say how great Colston was there was an annual church service laying flowers at his feet and lauding him. It was still running just a few years back.

For years people have tried to change just the plaque on the statue to be repeatedly blocked by a tiny minority of white activists.

Tanith · 11/06/2020 09:24

I'm just waiting for them to ban Bing. It's voiced by a white actor, after all.

Swipe left for the next trending thread