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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think erasing monuments and blackface doesn't help solve the race issue at all?

254 replies

GinDaddyRedux · 11/06/2020 05:42

I will try and keep this brief but I am getting increasingly furious (not overstatement) at the typical kneejerk, self-serving, virtue signalling nonsense I am seeing around race in the UK, in response to the protests following the death of George Floyd in the United States.

For context, I am a mixed race (black Afro-Caribbean/white) male who grew up in London around great people, knowing and looking up to a lot of the chaps whose fathers came off the Windrush or came in the 60s and 70s to work in London on transport etc. I feel a real connection to the islands as a heritage, but have always been fervently British as it's the only home I've known since birth.

Here's the thing that I find ridiculous. Why, just why are we now spending so much time and effort going through every public monument and reference to colonialism or slavery, and every instance of blackface or other comedy on TV, and erasing them from view as some sort of panacea that will solve the race issue? When there are vital social issues that need addressing that will help black people far quicker and more fundamentally then dealing with blackface?!

I thought Little Britain was hilarious. I think every character was a fantastic send-up of modern British sterotypes. And for modern British stereotypes to actually work, you need black people funnily enough. So I have no problems with the premise. Going further - to indicate a black person on screen, there's only a few ways to go about it, and considering how Lucas and Walliams are the authors of all their characters, it was going to be necessary for them to do something.

Who on earth then considers it helpful to the race relations debate in this country, to remove something from public viewing, that is perfectly within the licence of art and comedy, and which I doubt has been named in the list of influential factors around race that lead to black men's deaths in police custody?

Similarly, we seem to now be forensically combing our civic institutions, universities, libraries, consecrated places, and checking whether any of the statues, bequests, named buildings are connected to slavery.

It's the sort of handwringing, worthy effort that I expected, because it makes people feel they are doing something. It makes for nice headlines and distracts from the real issues that actually need addressing.

Namely, if governments want to help black people, start with the environment some of us (not all!) grow up in. Look at the structural things in terms of poverty, lack of access to resources, deprived areas, parental structures, health services, and see where this tends to lead to.

Then look at the number of convictions for police who have been brought to trial for the wrongful death of a black person in custody. You'll be looking for a long time.

The reactions to the protests are typical of British leaders who look for low-hanging fruit and public headlines over anything more fundamental. We are a more inclusive country than we are given credit; when writing this I was reminded of how South Asian friends of mine were laughing at the character of Taaj from "Come Fly With Me", stating Lucas' accent and slang was eerily spot on for a Midlands Asian chap. There's a great British tradition that if folk are openly and happily taking the piss out of you, it means you're a mate. That sketch was definitely in that spirit.

I just feel that yes, little things and perceptions around race matter. But to cleanse our streets of statues won't change the fundamental destinations and outcomes for black men and women in the UK. It will just make (largely white) councillors, politicians and leaders feel better. And that's what this is always about in the end.

OP posts:
Sandybval · 11/06/2020 10:05

Here in Bristol we're going to get a slavery museum (of course) when, just across the harbour, The M Shed has a whole floor dedicated to it.

Cool, what about everything else Bristol desperately needs that would improve the lives of everyone daily, most of all black residents?

2beautifulbabs · 11/06/2020 10:08

I think this has all gotten out of hand now violence and vandalism is not on not matter your race heritage etc does not give you a right to damage public property physically attack another person etc.

I fear we will have a push back of other extremists before long

We can't and shouldn't wipe out our history as PP have said it's what's shaped our country into what it is now.

We also learn from history not to repeat the same mistakes that our ancestors done.

We also shouldn't be taking down statues or renaming streets this is beyond a joke now.

Enough is enough the protesting needs to end now

Sandybval · 11/06/2020 10:10

Baden Powell is next, does this mean the Scouts are disbanding?

SistemaAddict · 11/06/2020 10:12

Hearhoovesthinkzebras could that be attributed to poverty and lack of choices perhaps? I've often read on mumsnet about people not being able to afford more ethical clothes and that more expensive shops are not necessarily any better in the conditions of the workers who make their products. Has it got worse with the arrival of places like primark? There are so many factors at play in all this.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 11/06/2020 10:20

@Bercows

Hearhoovesthinkzebras could that be attributed to poverty and lack of choices perhaps? I've often read on mumsnet about people not being able to afford more ethical clothes and that more expensive shops are not necessarily any better in the conditions of the workers who make their products. Has it got worse with the arrival of places like primark? There are so many factors at play in all this.
It probably is due, in part, to poverty. But then does that excuse it?

Can we really justify exploiting people, including children, in other parts of the world whilst at the same time holding people today responsible for what previous generations did?

I'm not excusing slavery at all. It was abhorrent. But you have to look at the context of when it was done. The very people who perpetrated it and who benefited from it were no doubt guilty of abusing and exploiting poor people in their own country too - it was seen as acceptable and poor people were seen as "less than". Look at how mill workers, including children were treated.

I don't see how anyone can condemn what happened in the past but be complicit in abuse in the present.

MockersGuidedByTheScience · 11/06/2020 10:24

The news from Poole is that Baden-Powell was going to be taken into protective custody in case the angry BAME Community of Dorset (yes, I know, I live there,) came and chucked him in the word's second largest natural harbour. (Don't argue, it is! )

So now BP has been surrounded by an angry army of pensioners on mobility scooters they are threatening to adapt as tanks to defend him.

The angry BAME community of Dorset still nowhere to be seen. There may be a reason for that.

MaMaLa321 · 11/06/2020 10:24

Him. Marvin Rees.

hamstersarse · 11/06/2020 10:26

"virtue signalling nonsense"????

Really? You sound like an alt-right troll.

I couldn't get past the opening of your post

I do wonder when people dismiss virtue signalling as just something that the 'alt-right' talk about if they have ever really thought about what people mean when they use the phrase.

This whole thread is about minor issues to do with race that are used by people to declare that they are not racist. They opt for the easy way to 'signal' that they are 'virtuous'. It's really easy to tear down a statue and declare yourself virtuous, not so easy to look at poverty and family structures that may influence outcomes for BAME populations, because that might mean some impact on your own comfortable bourgeois life.

Virtue signalling is everywhere on the left (to bring in the politics again). Constant posturing behind every 'cause' but only on the minor/easy issues, only on the things that can make you look good, and "on the right side"

Sandybval · 11/06/2020 10:26

I think it's unfair to judge on clothes really, how many accessible truly ethical clothing companies are there for young men? There are a few more for women, but I can't think of one which is affordable. It is a huge problem, of course it is, and one that should be addressed from a high level, but I don't think it's fair to judge on that considering the vast vast majority of clothes in this country are sadly produced this way (even some designer wear).

SistemaAddict · 11/06/2020 10:31

Hearhoovesthinkzebras good point.

I wish we could stop the works then start again with all the good bits and none of the crap and conflict. But human nature would soon intervene and we'd be back to crap and conflict in no time.

SistemaAddict · 11/06/2020 10:32

*world

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 11/06/2020 10:34

Sandybval

But what you are doing there is excusing the exploitation of people elsewhere in the world and justifying it because it benefits people in this country.

I'd say people involved in the slave trade probably did the same, no?

Sandybval · 11/06/2020 10:38

But what you are doing there is excusing the exploitation of people elsewhere in the world and justifying it because it benefits people in this country.

No I am not, what I am saying is that there isn't a widely available array of ethical clothing, so using it as a way to criticise protestors isn't really fair as I bet 99% of people have at least some clothing which was made in these conditions. We need to address it as a country, and consumers should be doing what they can to be more mindful, absolutely as it abhorrent and inexcusable. What I disagree with is using it as a way to try and discredit people in this scenario.

C130 · 11/06/2020 10:39

What has where they buy their clothes from got to do with the systemic racism that black people face in this country?

Sandybval · 11/06/2020 10:41

What has where they buy their clothes from got to do with the systemic racism that black people face in this country?

Exactly, and it isn't fair when there aren't really accessible alternatives available. Just another reach to try and discredit what's going on.

ekidmxcl · 11/06/2020 10:41

Yanbu op, I agree with you.

And I would add that actually the reactionary behaviour re combing for “racist” statues is going to make the racial tension that does exist worse.

I would further add that judging historical figures but the standards of a different era is not always advisable. For example, we all have smart phones that contain rare metals. Child slaves have become poisoned in the harvesting of these rare metals. In another 100 years, the fact that we happily use smart phones may cause statues of us to be pulled down because by buying smart phones, we didn’t care about the deaths and poisoning of enslaved children.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 11/06/2020 10:41

But the issue of cheap, unethical clothing has been going on for years. What has been done about it? Why haven't the people now setting fire to flags or throwing missiles at police campaigned to end it?

Why haven't people used their white privilege to end this exploitation?

Sandybval · 11/06/2020 10:55

Yes it has, plenty of people have actually pushed for change. In context of this though it's pathetic to use as a way to criticise and try to undermine.

dooble · 11/06/2020 11:02

What has where they buy their clothes from got to do with the systemic racism that black people face in this country?

Exactly, and it isn't fair when there aren't really accessible alternatives available. Just another reach to try and discredit what's going on.

That wasn't my point & Im not trying to discredit racism. My point is if we are looking at the past behaviour of our country & it's leaders who suppressed & dominated others to ensure their privilege we cannot ignore that we still do this today? Or do you not think it's relevant?

I also mentioned the acceptance of drug use amongst the middle classes & the impact of this on this on gang & knife crime. Is that relevant in a discussion about BLM?
The op is specifically discussing the impact of certain actions & what those actions achieve.

Thinkingg · 11/06/2020 11:05
  • Why haven't the people now setting fire to flags or throwing missiles at police campaigned to end it?

Why haven't people used their white privilege to end this exploitation?*

Maybe they have. How would you know? Not condoning violence against police. But in general I hate this style of argument, the moment you try to campaign for one kind of change, you get torn down because you're not simultaneously doing everything else. Even though many of the individual protesters are doing lots of quiet complex work behind the scenes.

We live in a society which is so interconnected that anyone who lives a normal life is "complicit". No-one can solve everything at once. And yet we criticise the protestors for not solving labor exploitation - surely all the non protestors are equally deserving of that criticism.

George monbiot said it best about the environmental protests: "The commonest current excuse is this: “I bet those protesters have phones/go on holiday/wear leather shoes.” In other words, we won’t listen to anyone who is not living naked in a barrel, subsisting only on murky water. Of course, if you are living naked in a barrel we will dismiss you too, because you’re a hippie weirdo. Every messenger, and every message they bear, is disqualified on the grounds of either impurity or purity."

malificent7 · 11/06/2020 11:07

I am a bit dubious about this different era bollocks.
I am pretty sure that killing was just as bad back then as it is today...and the slave trade killed many.

malificent7 · 11/06/2020 11:08

Evil is evil whether it was 1000 years ago or yesterday.

Thinkingg · 11/06/2020 11:13

@dooble interesting point about middle class drug use. What do you think should be done? I'd lean towards legalisation of soft drugs - though as shown in the clothing example, legal industries can still be highly exploitative Sad

YeahWhatevver · 11/06/2020 11:15

Part of the problem also is that any public figure who speaks out against this (see JK Rowling on the Transgender issue) gets ostracised and shouted down as intolerant/racist/bigoted etc.

What's worse is that the public bullying of these moderate and oftentimes valid challenges makes others join in the mob mentality - again, JKR see how Daniel Radcliffe and Eddie Redmayne have sided with the mob, presumably through fear of being shouted down too.

It's the same with a lot of the issue around the BLM movement. We should 100% be fixing the chronic issues of race inequality in our societies, fixing poverty, crime and education issues in a sustainable way for the better of everyone but we should also be able to question censorship of media (Little Britain etc) without being held up as a racist. Perhaps if we could move the discussion to more meaningful societal changes and get it away from the current fixation of scrutinising every institution for a mere whiff of some sort of historical wrongdoing we would actually see some change.

OrangeCinnamon · 11/06/2020 11:17

I'm starting to wonder what's the point in even contributing to discussions on race on social media and the like. Before long someone comes along and tells you , you are a woke leftie or alt right without knowing anything about you - life is more complicated than that and part of the problem is us all screaming into the void and not listening to each other and not taking action.

Or someone diverts the issue - 'im not racist but'

I'm taking action , it may not meet a stranger on mumsnet best type of criteria and it doesn't mean I don't care about or take action about any other equity or pertinent issues.

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