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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think erasing monuments and blackface doesn't help solve the race issue at all?

254 replies

GinDaddyRedux · 11/06/2020 05:42

I will try and keep this brief but I am getting increasingly furious (not overstatement) at the typical kneejerk, self-serving, virtue signalling nonsense I am seeing around race in the UK, in response to the protests following the death of George Floyd in the United States.

For context, I am a mixed race (black Afro-Caribbean/white) male who grew up in London around great people, knowing and looking up to a lot of the chaps whose fathers came off the Windrush or came in the 60s and 70s to work in London on transport etc. I feel a real connection to the islands as a heritage, but have always been fervently British as it's the only home I've known since birth.

Here's the thing that I find ridiculous. Why, just why are we now spending so much time and effort going through every public monument and reference to colonialism or slavery, and every instance of blackface or other comedy on TV, and erasing them from view as some sort of panacea that will solve the race issue? When there are vital social issues that need addressing that will help black people far quicker and more fundamentally then dealing with blackface?!

I thought Little Britain was hilarious. I think every character was a fantastic send-up of modern British sterotypes. And for modern British stereotypes to actually work, you need black people funnily enough. So I have no problems with the premise. Going further - to indicate a black person on screen, there's only a few ways to go about it, and considering how Lucas and Walliams are the authors of all their characters, it was going to be necessary for them to do something.

Who on earth then considers it helpful to the race relations debate in this country, to remove something from public viewing, that is perfectly within the licence of art and comedy, and which I doubt has been named in the list of influential factors around race that lead to black men's deaths in police custody?

Similarly, we seem to now be forensically combing our civic institutions, universities, libraries, consecrated places, and checking whether any of the statues, bequests, named buildings are connected to slavery.

It's the sort of handwringing, worthy effort that I expected, because it makes people feel they are doing something. It makes for nice headlines and distracts from the real issues that actually need addressing.

Namely, if governments want to help black people, start with the environment some of us (not all!) grow up in. Look at the structural things in terms of poverty, lack of access to resources, deprived areas, parental structures, health services, and see where this tends to lead to.

Then look at the number of convictions for police who have been brought to trial for the wrongful death of a black person in custody. You'll be looking for a long time.

The reactions to the protests are typical of British leaders who look for low-hanging fruit and public headlines over anything more fundamental. We are a more inclusive country than we are given credit; when writing this I was reminded of how South Asian friends of mine were laughing at the character of Taaj from "Come Fly With Me", stating Lucas' accent and slang was eerily spot on for a Midlands Asian chap. There's a great British tradition that if folk are openly and happily taking the piss out of you, it means you're a mate. That sketch was definitely in that spirit.

I just feel that yes, little things and perceptions around race matter. But to cleanse our streets of statues won't change the fundamental destinations and outcomes for black men and women in the UK. It will just make (largely white) councillors, politicians and leaders feel better. And that's what this is always about in the end.

OP posts:
hamstersarse · 13/06/2020 10:17

@midgebabe

Does helping people really promote helplessness? Is it not that you see the helplessness, hopelessness that is some people's nature more easily when help is offered?
I would use an example that we can probably all understand here to demonstrate the point about 'helping' and that is bringing up children.

Lots of us HE'ing at the moment - how do you get your child to be optimum at doing their homework?

So you have to factor in many different things straightaway - age, personality type, natural ability etc. But once those things are factored in, how do you decide what level of 'help' you offer?

The temptation may be to 'just do it for them' and hope they can see the value in completing homework and learn as they see you doing it and producing the answers. But is that the best thing for them?

Usually not, the best approach is coaching, making small bits of progress in the right direction, but making them do it, allowing them the exploration to make mistakes, get things wrong and then correct it themselves, using their own abilities. That is where confidence grows and they start to become more independent learners - BUT NOT ACHIEVING EQUAL OUTCOMES.

The same applies to the narrative to HELP people in poor communities, to me it is extremely patronising to HELP people, and I think it comes from a very selfish (not altruistic) place - it feels good to HELP people because you are taking away their power (oh the irony!).

Think about yourself people offer to HELP you, it is undermining.

SistemaAddict · 13/06/2020 10:21

@TwilightPeace
"Um....economic investment does help to solve things. Eradicating poverty, more investment in education, better healthcare systems that focus on improving mental health, funding for clubs and groups that bring people together to improve their lives. Crazy concept I know. "

How do we eradicate poverty? How do we improve education? Do we still have Sure Start? Pupil Premium? These are/were two schemes I am aware of to help bridge the divide. Do you think that there is a self fulfilling prophecy issue here? A cycle of negativity? Is it not our responsibility as parents to encourage our children to achieve their full potential and help them do so? Is it not our individual responsibility to be the best we can be, make use of everything there is to help us. Deprivation may mean someone is less likely to achieve in life but it's not a certainty. We need to give our children the skills to achieve their potential, a can-do attitude and skills to overcome obstacles. I'm not saying this is easy but we have to be responsible for ourselves and ensure the negativity is not perpetuated by defeatism.

midgebabe · 13/06/2020 10:21

Ah..it's our definition of the word help that differs I think

I would say that you don't help a child by doing it for them or making it easy for them or sitting with them the whole time . You are coddling them. Helping is giving them the tools they need ...a pencil, a suggestion , a quiet space and some encouragement

And so with the underprivileged, they need the tools to work with. Education, good jobs in their own community not hundreds of miles from family, a sense of belonging to the country as well as their own communities

RosesandAnts · 13/06/2020 10:22

I think you are acting in bad faith here with what people have said about losing empathy. I read those statements about losing empathy to mean that people are upset about being constantly accused of being racist....just because of the colour of their skin

That’s very interesting wording. This whole BLM stuff only kicked off about 1-2 weeks ago? and white people are losing their empathy. Try switching that around and imagine the emotions felt by black people who are on the receiving end of yrs and yrs and generation upon generation of racism at the hand of white people. Can you imagine the rage they feel? and they’ve done is pulled down a statue and marched through towns.

OrangeCinnamon · 13/06/2020 10:23

Will have to.disagree on that one @hamsterarse i've not seen once anyone say all White British are racist but lots of times people taking these movements as a personal attack and declaring loss of empathy.

mrsBtheparker · 13/06/2020 10:26

They have pushed many people more to the right by their violence, well done folks!

hamstersarse · 13/06/2020 10:28

😂😂😂 funniest thing I’ve read in ages!
Yes the right are so well known for expecting people to ‘get themselves out’ of the poverty they are born into, the systems that benefit nobody except the rich. Awk sure let’s just tell them to work a bit harder, it has worked a treat thus far.
The system was created to be this way, and that is the problem.

I knew when I wrote that it would be picked up. But let's look at it, is it a coincidence that the Tory party actually have the best record on diversity? I don't think so, because when you look at it like this it makes sense.

Also, the 'system' that you talk about is very different from 30 years ago. When you look at who these RICH people are now - it is not mostly from inherited wealth like it was years ago, they are people who have made their own way and made their own money from a huge variety of backgrounds. The 'system' does offer opportunity, for everyone. Whether you chose to see that is up to you, but one thing I know for sure, sitting there feeling like you are powerless against 'the system' is the epitome of helplessness - but hey, when there is failure you can always fall back on the blaming of the system - so on and on it goes.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 13/06/2020 10:38

I've made the point on other threads about poverty, education, jobs, crime all needing to be addressed. But undeniably all of these apply to deprived white people too, in fact, the group of children doing least we'll in school are white working class boys.

Where I think it's difficult is the conflation of poverty with racism. Undeniably poverty has many very negative outcomes but that doesn't mean that all white people are racist or have privilege. Crime is a huge problem and of course that needs to be policed. I live in London - there is a fear here of being a victim of crime. There is a huge fear that your child will be a victim of crime, particularly knife crime. We have gangs targeting school children on the way home from school, robbing them at knife point. Don't tell me that doesn't require policing. I'd also like to see the black community end FGM - it seems to me that BLM are really only talking about black men. What are people doing to end inequality for black women, and I address that towards black men too?

Wbeezer · 13/06/2020 10:40

My take on the debate about monuments is informed by the fact that I have a degree in Sculpture. I studied the history of monuments as part if art history. In summary, the meaning of objects and their purpose change over time and are not "set in stone". When these sculptures were put up the men concerned were powerful and well known, now people walk past without a clue who they are, they are basically just landmarks for most peoples devoid of much meaning. We can try and give them new meanings but its hard to control them, the act of removing them has meaning and an effect too.
My personal feeling is keep them, add contextual info for those interested and use other more responsive types of public art for current events and issues, like the amazing murals in Glasgow. We need reminders of bad history as well as good history.

RosesandAnts · 13/06/2020 10:40

They have pushed many people more to the right by their violence, well done folks!

Not sure why you’re crowing about that. It just shows who those people truly were all along.

DdraigGoch · 13/06/2020 10:42

You think BLM is ‘far left’?
@SirTanty people who have been spraying hammer-and-sickle emblems on things could hardly be anything else.

OrangeCinnamon · 13/06/2020 10:43

Fgs it's not 'self help vs social help' life is more complex than that.

hamstersarse · 13/06/2020 10:45

@RosesandAnts

They have pushed many people more to the right by their violence, well done folks!

Not sure why you’re crowing about that. It just shows who those people truly were all along.

Doesn't the statement mean it shows that those people do not accept that violence is a good response to what should be a debate and a conversation and the right are the place where that is the view?

Yet, your analysis here is so clouded by party stereotypes that you cannot see past Tory = murderer, yet to add even more mentalness to this, the fact someone is going more right is exactly because they don't agree with violence

The world is a seriously crazy place right now!

letsjustallbenice · 13/06/2020 10:45

I believe racism comes from the type of people who judge on appearance in general, who are prejudice towards class, race or whatever it maybe so therefore no i dont think pulling down monuments and blackface helps, nothing is going to help until we battle the bigger picture and that is the many people who think it is ok to judge anyone on how they look or how they talk, how much money they have.. its not just about race its about predjudice in general and it starts from school age, kids bully each other.. and that doesnt stop for every child as they become an adult.. they just become more clever about how they go about their bullying..to make it more socially acceptable, it is more subtle.. manipulative and narcissistic... you deal with the root problem being the haters..bullies.. the narcissists.. you deal with the racism along with it. If we were all as passionate about being against reducing bullies, narcissists as we are racists, maybe we would get somewhere, because for these people its not about colour its about hating..i dont believe they just do it to people of colour.. they aim for people that they know they can get a reaction out of like all bullies/narcissists do

OrangeCinnamon · 13/06/2020 10:45

@DdraigGoch how many incidences compared to how many people supporting the movement.

Let us all not forget about the far right trolls too.

OrangeCinnamon · 13/06/2020 10:48

@letsjustallbenice

Something in that ... an embedded belief superiority or their own potential to be superior perhaps?

RosesandAnts · 13/06/2020 10:48

I've made the point on other threads about poverty, education, jobs, crime all needing to be addressed. But undeniably all of these apply to deprived white people too, in fact, the group of children doing least we'll in school are white working class boys.

And these debates keep going round in circles no wonder why I keep seeing black people screaming, “educate yourself”. There’s been thread after thread on MN addressing everything you’ve just said. That BLM is about “black people”.If you want to start a movement or talk about deprivation in white communities you can do that but that is not what BLM is about. Every time the effects of racism on black people is raised someone pops up to shoehorn what about? what about?

It doesn’t matter how much we try to educate, the truth is some people are just stuffing fingers and going tra.. la..la..L.A.!

hamstersarse · 13/06/2020 10:54

It doesn’t matter how much we try to educate, the truth is some people are just stuffing fingers and going tra.. la..la..L.A.!

I honestly don't hear you listening on this thread either.

What I suspect you mean is that you are clearly aren't listening unless and until you agree with me.

BovaryX · 13/06/2020 10:58

people who have been spraying hammer-and-sickle emblems on things could hardly be anything else

GrinGrin

shartsi · 13/06/2020 11:12

This

To think erasing monuments and blackface doesn't help solve the race issue at all?
OrangeCinnamon · 13/06/2020 11:17

You can support BLM and support other matters too. Currently working on a project concerning White Working Class boys too. Thing is if people don't ascribe to battling inequality in general everyone suffers.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 13/06/2020 11:21

@RosesandAnts

I've made the point on other threads about poverty, education, jobs, crime all needing to be addressed. But undeniably all of these apply to deprived white people too, in fact, the group of children doing least we'll in school are white working class boys.

And these debates keep going round in circles no wonder why I keep seeing black people screaming, “educate yourself”. There’s been thread after thread on MN addressing everything you’ve just said. That BLM is about “black people”.If you want to start a movement or talk about deprivation in white communities you can do that but that is not what BLM is about. Every time the effects of racism on black people is raised someone pops up to shoehorn what about? what about?

It doesn’t matter how much we try to educate, the truth is some people are just stuffing fingers and going tra.. la..la..L.A.!

My point was relating to the poster arguing that poverty etc has to be addressed. I'm not talking about deprivation in "white communities", wherever they are. I live in London - I don't know of anywhere here that could be described as a "white community". It's an incredibly diverse area.

What I'm saying is that this is a multifactorial problem. Tackling just one part of the problem, in this case racism, won't do anything will it? Because racism is a part of the problem, but it isn't the whole problem and isn't the biggest problem facing black people. While crime, particularly gang and knife crime is so high, especially here in London of course the police are going to be involved. How can they not be? Is that racist? All of these issues are interconnected and I don't see how you can take one issue and tackle it independent of all others.

Take knife crime as an example. There's a real issue with particularly young men being attacked, so you then get more boys and men carrying knives because they are fearful, which then means even more carry them. How do you end that? You can't just tackle one group, you have to address the whole problem. I don't want to see metal detectors installed at school gates (we've had mobile arches at my children's school in the past, after a teacher got stabbed). I want the police involved in that level of crime. Is that racist?

Bluemoooon · 13/06/2020 11:27

Getting bobbies on the beat would be something. That did a lot to sort out teenage gang crime in the past. The bobbies would be on the side of the parents.
I am at a loss to see why the mayor of London seems to be incapable of finding the money to introduce ANYTHING to improve the lot of black kids or white kids, footie pitches, gyms - nothing. Spending a fortune on transport though.

midgebabe · 13/06/2020 11:28

Hard work is not enough to lift you out of depravation...think of the young adult who is still caring for a disabled parent in a hotbed of good jobs such as Great Yarmouth .they work really hard , with nothing to show for it but exhaustion

Education is needed, hope is needed, opportunity is needed, support for the frail and disabled is needed

Opportunity in particular is what is denied them. They don't know anyone for a good internship. They have no confidence as they are so different to the sucessfulful people, they can't see how they would ever be like that

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 13/06/2020 11:36

Particularly with regards to drug crime as well what jobs pay that much money? There seems to be a huge culture of wanting a certain lifestyle - car, designer clothes etc and working a normal job just seems unacceptable to certain people. They want the money to finance this fancy lifestyle and a lot of the time that money comes from crime.

I volunteered at a school and we did an exercise in PSHE once. We asked year 11 students to visualise the life they wanted at age 30, literally everything, the house, the car, the holidays, children maybe and how much they would need to earn to pay for each element. Then they were asked to guess how much certain jobs paid. They were all so shocked when the truth was revealed and they started to realise that designer handbags and £60,000 cars actually weren't affordable to pretty much most of society, that many professions aren't earning the sort of money necessary to live footballer lifestyles.

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