Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think erasing monuments and blackface doesn't help solve the race issue at all?

254 replies

GinDaddyRedux · 11/06/2020 05:42

I will try and keep this brief but I am getting increasingly furious (not overstatement) at the typical kneejerk, self-serving, virtue signalling nonsense I am seeing around race in the UK, in response to the protests following the death of George Floyd in the United States.

For context, I am a mixed race (black Afro-Caribbean/white) male who grew up in London around great people, knowing and looking up to a lot of the chaps whose fathers came off the Windrush or came in the 60s and 70s to work in London on transport etc. I feel a real connection to the islands as a heritage, but have always been fervently British as it's the only home I've known since birth.

Here's the thing that I find ridiculous. Why, just why are we now spending so much time and effort going through every public monument and reference to colonialism or slavery, and every instance of blackface or other comedy on TV, and erasing them from view as some sort of panacea that will solve the race issue? When there are vital social issues that need addressing that will help black people far quicker and more fundamentally then dealing with blackface?!

I thought Little Britain was hilarious. I think every character was a fantastic send-up of modern British sterotypes. And for modern British stereotypes to actually work, you need black people funnily enough. So I have no problems with the premise. Going further - to indicate a black person on screen, there's only a few ways to go about it, and considering how Lucas and Walliams are the authors of all their characters, it was going to be necessary for them to do something.

Who on earth then considers it helpful to the race relations debate in this country, to remove something from public viewing, that is perfectly within the licence of art and comedy, and which I doubt has been named in the list of influential factors around race that lead to black men's deaths in police custody?

Similarly, we seem to now be forensically combing our civic institutions, universities, libraries, consecrated places, and checking whether any of the statues, bequests, named buildings are connected to slavery.

It's the sort of handwringing, worthy effort that I expected, because it makes people feel they are doing something. It makes for nice headlines and distracts from the real issues that actually need addressing.

Namely, if governments want to help black people, start with the environment some of us (not all!) grow up in. Look at the structural things in terms of poverty, lack of access to resources, deprived areas, parental structures, health services, and see where this tends to lead to.

Then look at the number of convictions for police who have been brought to trial for the wrongful death of a black person in custody. You'll be looking for a long time.

The reactions to the protests are typical of British leaders who look for low-hanging fruit and public headlines over anything more fundamental. We are a more inclusive country than we are given credit; when writing this I was reminded of how South Asian friends of mine were laughing at the character of Taaj from "Come Fly With Me", stating Lucas' accent and slang was eerily spot on for a Midlands Asian chap. There's a great British tradition that if folk are openly and happily taking the piss out of you, it means you're a mate. That sketch was definitely in that spirit.

I just feel that yes, little things and perceptions around race matter. But to cleanse our streets of statues won't change the fundamental destinations and outcomes for black men and women in the UK. It will just make (largely white) councillors, politicians and leaders feel better. And that's what this is always about in the end.

OP posts:
QuentinWinters · 11/06/2020 13:43

Totally agree op, was just reading about HBO decision to remove the film "Gone with the Wind" for its portrayal of black people.

The film that contained the first role a black actor was nominated and won an oscar for.

It's a very old film, very influential at the time and has interesting commentary despite a very stereotypical portrayal (but also dated) of black people.

Let's discuss the stereotypes. Removing the film seems like censorship. It's hardly glorifying racism

contrmary · 11/06/2020 13:48

@BovaryX

Abraham Lincoln's statue was sprayed with graffiti. Should that be pulled down too? There are no significant historical figures that will pas the judgement of the 21st century.

Abraham Lincoln was an appalling racist. He ended slavery because he was opposed to the concept of one human owning another. This didn't mean he wasn't a huge racist, like many white privileged men of the time. For example, he publicly stated that he didn't believe black people were equal to white people, that they shouldn't be allowed to vote, to be on juries, to hold public office, or to intermarry with white people.

It's understandable that if people thing targeting statues of other appalling racists (Ghandi, Baden-Powell) is OK then Abraham Lincoln is a fair target too.

That's one Washington landmark dealt with, who's next? Oh, slave-owning George Washington himself of course! His memorial needs demolishing. Come to think of it, Washington DC needs renaming too...

JustAnotherPoster00 · 11/06/2020 13:51

Totally agree op, was just reading about HBO decision to remove the film "Gone with the Wind" for its portrayal of black people.

Theyve removed it temporarily so dont worry your feel good racism will be back in no time, news to me that we have HBO in the uk though Confused

BovaryX · 11/06/2020 13:51

@vulvachips

It's a shame that more Brits have not heard about David Dorn. He was killed while trying to protect his buddy's shop from looters. David Dorn was a retired police chief, who had spent 38 years serving his community. Hundreds attended his funeral.

www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/hundreds-gather-at-st-louis-church-to-honor-ex-police-captain-killed-in-looting/article_358d9a6d-f9c7-511f-9821-8eb3a48787b1.html

rosiejaune · 11/06/2020 13:56

If that's all they were doing, then yes it would be pointless. But, like the myriad apparently small things that add up to rape culture, inappropriate statues are part of racism culture, and hopefully this is a sign that it is changing.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 11/06/2020 14:00

@BovaryX

I find that so hard to understand. They protest about the appalling death of one man, whilst causing death and injury to others.

How does that make any sense?

TeapotBetty · 11/06/2020 14:05

He ended slavery because he was opposed to the concept of one human owning another

Pretty sure he ended it because he knew it would cripple the southern economy.

MaMaLa321 · 11/06/2020 14:07

bovaryx the Spectator article is behind a paywall (which is fine by me, as I believe in paying for good journalism) but I assume it'll be in tomorrow's Spectator. Douglas Murray is a voice of sanity in the middle of all this. Posey Parker is saying much the same thing.

BovaryX · 11/06/2020 14:08

That's one Washington landmark dealt with, who's next? Oh, slave-owning George Washington himself of course! His memorial needs demolishing. Come to think of it, Washington DC needs renaming too

Excellent point @contrmary!

IsadoraQuagmire · 11/06/2020 14:12

It's all making people FAR more racist...

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 11/06/2020 14:17

Totally agree OP. It’s a case of divide and rule, set one disadvantaged group against another in a race to the bottom, what needs tackling is inequality on a much broader scale. At the moment the disadvantaged are squabbling amongst themselves.

The BLM movement has undoubtedly been infiltrated by people with no concern over equality, they are just intent on stirring up trouble, either for their own personal satisfaction or for more sinister reasons.

The more ridiculous and anachronistic the message is becoming the less attention is being placed on the current time, things that can actually be changed. This was a great opportunity for full discussions over the embedded inequalities in society, instead we get everyone focusing over removing statues of people who lived hundreds of years ago who were acting in accordance with normal contemporary morals and actions. But while the masses are rioting they haven’t got time to think.

BovaryX · 11/06/2020 14:24

Douglas Murray is a voice of sanity

@MaMaLa321

Yes. He gives a defense of classic liberal values. It's worth reading. I would copy and paste, but the Spectator doesn't have that option.

MaMaLa321 · 11/06/2020 14:27

I have a subscription, so I'm looking forward to getting it tomorrow, but thank you.

vulvachips · 11/06/2020 14:36

In the US, Chris Palmer, NBA reporter, was enthusiastically tweeting support for burning and looting. Burn that sht down. Burn it all down. But when this violent destruction came to his gated community? His enthusiasm evaporated.

Get these animals TF out of my neighborhood. Go back to where you live

You couldn't make it up! It's fine for the poorer communities to suffer rioting etc but that behaviour doesn't belong in the richer generally whiter neighbourhoods because they are much better people.....

endofthelinefinally · 11/06/2020 14:36

This is why there are risks to marches/protests/demonstrations etc. Of course they have their place, but there will always be the hijackers and saboteurs.
There are many other things to be done, such as signing petitions, supporting charities, volunteering to run youth groups, writing to MPs (although my MP hasn't responded to the last 3 emails I have sent her during lockdown Angry) actively working to change the culture in our own work places.
I wonder how many of the people damaging buildings and destroying things also do all of the above.
I am scared that the violence will get worse.

vulvachips · 11/06/2020 14:38

@quentin I believe they are going to reinstate the film with appropriate commentary.

hamstersarse · 11/06/2020 14:41

Dr Thomas Sowell offers a rational alternative view of race relations

There are many outspoken black people in the US who speak out fervently against Black Lives Matter.

Coleman Hughes is a great one to listen to - it really challenges the narrative

MaMaLa321 · 11/06/2020 14:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

vulvachips · 11/06/2020 14:43

Personally I think the police are in a very difficult position. If they get involved they are racist (yes I do think the police are structurally racist & sexist just as society is). If they don't get involved others probably will and violence increases & divisions grow.

MaMaLa321 · 11/06/2020 14:44

yes, I think you're right vulvachips but it's still hard to stomach.

Jaxhog · 11/06/2020 14:50

I'm angry too. Because a lot of the protesters don't care about BAME. For many, it is all about virtue signalling and anarchy. While I do understand how angry people can be about historical figures presented as statues, I also don't believe that pulling them down will make one iota of difference. There is even a lot to be said to leaving them up as a reminder that they and their attitudes are in the past. With a constant reminder, we can all remember not to do these things ever again and to strive to stop them where they happen today.

I am also saddened by the idea that the only way to change things is through rioting and civil disorder. All this does is make the barriers between different people stronger, when we should be seeking to make them weaker.

MangoFeverDream · 11/06/2020 14:54

I used to wonder, in my time in China, what kind of people would participate in such violence and destruction.

I no longer wonder ....

C130 · 11/06/2020 14:55

@IsadoraQuagmire

It's all making people FAR more racist...
What? More racist than they were already? wow. I do think the focus needs to return to the fact that BAME people suffer from systemic racism in this country, and that needs to be dealt with still.
hamstersarse · 11/06/2020 14:55

I just re-watched this Coleman Hughes video

It's really recommended. He is so smart.

BagpussAteMyHomework · 11/06/2020 15:00

I am also saddened by the idea that the only way to change things is through rioting and civil disorder..

Most of the BLM marches have been peaceful.

Swipe left for the next trending thread