To hope this racist woman loses her job - thread 2

[zscaler]

But Vlad says she doesn't want allies, so what's the point?

The point is, you do it because it’s the right thing to do, not because you might gain something (trust / respect / gratitude / praise) from it.

You do it because all white people have a moral responsibility to dismantle racism, and that shouldn’t be dependent on black people asking us to do it, or being polite, or being grateful for our allyship.

Because it’s the very bare minimum we could and should do.

Thanks for he continuation.

But Vlad says she doesn't want allies, so what's the point?

Well there we go, I guess you can merrily go back to telling black people the acceptable language they can use when talking about racism.

Haven't followed the last thread to the end but I agree with the opening post. I'm not an ally to get recognition. I happen to be an ally because when I see something wrong, I call it what it is. Doesn't matter if anyone sees me do so or not or likes it or not.

The point is to do the right thing anyway.

It's not about Vlad though, it's about doing the right thing

I actually think it's good to have a name that encapsulates that kind of woman. Just happens to be 'Karen'.

I actually didn't know about this usage of Karen, so I've learned something new today.

Could someone please link the first post?Can't seem to find it.

First thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3920250-To-hope-this-racist-woman-loses-her-job

Well there we go, I guess you can merrily go back to telling black people the acceptable language they can use when talking about racism

Being black is not a free pass to be sexist or misogynistic.

Odd that white women, unlike white men, no matter how unpleasant, rarely actually shoot black men but there's no equivalent of "Karen" for white men.

Thanks @zscaler

Thanks @zscaler I’m still following this thread

Being black is not a free pass to be sexist or misogynistic.

There was a broad discussion on the other thread about the ways in which the term ‘Karen’ is used by black women to describe the particular harm associated with white feminism. The fact that white men have co-opted the term for sexist purposes isn’t the fault of black women, or something they are obliged to address.

Odd that white women, unlike white men, no matter how unpleasant, rarely actually shoot black men but there's no equivalent of "Karen" for white men.

It’s not as if the only harm done to black people is shooting them, as the Amy Cooper video amply demonstrates. The term ‘Karen’ was being discussed in the specific context of the harm white women do by disregarding the lives and experiences of black women in the name of their feminism.

It’s also incredibly relevant that in the context of a video in which a woman threatened police brutality against a black man, it was wildly inappropriate for a handful of women to try and derail the thread by being significantly more concerned about the use of the word ‘Karen’ than they were about the violence threatened in the video.

Thanks for a new thread @zscaler!

I never said I don't want allies but I respect the points you made Zscaler & NotAgainNo. I said I am not "your" ally is an an ally to a Karen vis a vis sexism - nor would I want to be an ally in that regard... Indeed I spent a great deal of that thread grappling with being fearful of white allies who could easily turn so not sure how that suddenly became me not wanting allies or indeed hating white women. Why do people only read what they want from things or is it that nuance is lost on forums and on complex issues such as these?

Odd that white women, unlike white men, no matter how unpleasant, rarely actually shoot black men but there's no equivalent of "Karen" for white men.

Simply because white women are in the whole weaker than men - in place of guns you have tears, fragility and vulnerability. You can call upon the cops to support you. That's the difference - white men will just kill you on the spot. White women will call the police and scream - both have the same agenda but only the men have perhaps the actual gun and wherewithal to do it. See Amy would see herself as a victim - she wouldn't shoot but would be happy to have a cop shoot on her behalf. Other Karens do shoot - depends on the sort of white woman you meet.

The fact that white men have co-opted the term for sexist purposes isn’t the fault of black women, or something they are obliged to address

Black women invented it. It's a horrible reductionist term.

Black women invented it. It's a horrible reductionist term.

I agree. So here's the deal: once you get all white women to stop weaponising their inner Karen and solve police brutality and indeed racism and micro-aggressions faced by black women specifically from white women we'll stop using the term Karen. Please let me know when all the above has been achieved and I'll issue a 'cease and desist' letter to all black women globally.

I'm not interested in engaging with you if you continue to use that term.

You can't even see your own bigotry.

Odd that white women, unlike white men, no matter how unpleasant, rarely actually shoot black men but there's no equivalent of "Karen" for white men.

No, they don't shoot black men but as white women, we have power. A silent (or not so silent) power most so-called feminists either don't see or pretend doesn't exist. That power, when used against a black person (man or woman) is life shattering and when used positively, it makes a world of difference. We use that power to benefit us.

Look at the metoo movement, do you know a black woman started it? I bet most people don't. I didn't know till I saw it somewhere recently and looked it up. It didn't gain much ground when a black woman was chairing it but who's the face and wielder of the power of this movement now? Yup, white women and the black women have once again become the "assistants" and "friends" in something they founded or should be at the forefront of.

Whose causes are being fought?

A few white men have been caught out but white women have used it to witch hunt black men left right center. Why not? It's much easier to believe. Much more easier for them to be the scapegoats. The white men can easily apologise, resign and scamper away to their multimillion dollar/pounds homes, secretly still earning money, the white man will have other powerful white men to hide behind and have the news thwarted to make them look just a little...just a tad guilty but nothing more (Yea, he was just a friend. He only helped his friend, he never participated but he's guilty by association, we agree).

But a black man?.......even when not proven guilty, he's still seen as guilty of it all.

All the flipping white men in the media, politics, etc doing all sorts of disgusting things, yet we have more black men being publicly metoo-ed, even though there's fewer of them than white men. The white man's sin is kept under the radar.

No we don't shoot them but we have power, we can use it whenever we want. You can see a white man coming from a mile away but an innocent white woman? Noooooo

Feminism benefits white women much more...if not only. Time to become truly equal. It starts with us white women, let's fight it, not for our own benefit for once.

Wow. YABU winning the vote.

@NotTerfNorCis I wouldn’t get too excited. It’s 50/50 and only ten people have voted.

This feels like those times men divert discussions by objecting to terms like "Schrödinger's rapist" and demanding that women append NAMALT to every blogpost.

Just thought it was worth sharing this.

www.cbsnews.com/news/christian-cooper-uncomfortable-hate-amy-cooper-central-park-video/

I can't vote on the app and I assume many users only use the app too. It's irrelevant really.

Another black man was killed this week, this time during arrest. Despite public being present,despite being filmed, despite the man pleading that he can't breathe a police officer still deemed himself "safe" and righteous enough not to remove his knee of a dying man's neck.

How do I see the vote? That's wild... so half of posters basically think Amy was entirely the victim?

@PrincessConsueIaBananaHammock the video really upset me and I just despair that it continues to happen.

Rest in power George Floyd.

YABU isn’t winning the vote, but I would have expected there to be a wider margin in favour of YANBU.

I don’t think the term ‘Karen’ has helped the cause to encourage posters to vote YANBU, though, as there is a large number of white women on Mumsnet. (I voted YANBU btw, as the behaviour of the white woman in question was sickening.)

This feels like those times men divert discussions by objecting to terms like "Schrödinger's rapist" and demanding that women append NAMALT to every blogpost.

It does feel very similar.